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The trial in Norway 
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Post The trial in Norway
As probably a lot of you are aware, an extremely awful tragedy took place in Norway July 22nd last year. These days, the murderer is put to trial in Norway. It is extremely interresting learning what goes on in the mind of a person who have killed almost a hundred innocent children on an isolated island.

I am also very proud that our country has been able to handle this situation with dignity, thus crossed the hopes of the murderer, who had as one of his goals to barbarize our country. He is for example annoyed that he has not the opportunity to be condemned to death, as a martyr status is one of his biarre wishes. It is a great pleasure and relief that he admits that the reactions we had in Norway are exactly the reactions he despise.

Now I am curious about to which degree the rest of the world follows this trial and what opinions you have on it and the Norwegian way of handling such an extreme situation?

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Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:39 pm
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Of course he'd demand to be put to death, he's fully aware that there isn't a death penalty, so, he imagine he gains a certain status by making such a demand knowing full well it won't happen.
They should throw him in Angola (Louisiana State Penitentiary in the US). Almost every prison in Norway is far too luxurious for mass murderers...or even felons of every other stripe. If he can't receive the DP, then a stint in Angola will make him change his religion. It'll certainly make him rewrite his manifesto.


Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:24 pm
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Dax wrote:
Of course he'd demand to be put to death, he's fully aware that there isn't a death penalty, so, he imagine he gains a certain status by making such a demand knowing full well it won't happen.


According to himself, it was part of his negotiations. If he could manage to destroy the human attitude of Norwegian judical system, part of his plan would have succeeded. Being sentenced to death would mean he would become a martyr for his own cause.

Following his wacky logic, I don't think there is much reason to doubt him.

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\"You all are f***ing crazy, except Hans, who is actually quite smart\" - Jennyanydots


Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:05 am
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
On some things he's not exactly wrong. This is what made him dangerous.
I'm not too sure it was a good idea to give Breivik a public outlet for a media platform. Breivik's ideology is all too familiar: that's our big problem
It's comforting to view the killer's horror of multiculturalism as deranged – but it is just an extreme example of what many feel.

If part of his plan is to destroy the human attitude in Norway's penal system, then maybe he needs to see first hand how inhuman a system can be.
Of course that's making the assumption of giving a damn about changing his attitude.
I don't.
Would Norway feel discomfitted knowing that they became part of his plan should they give him death? Why would they care? Breivik's ideas, his plans, his opinions his dis/approval, his sanity, are irrelevant.
He willingly, knowingly, murdered dozens of people. That's all we need to know.


Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:18 am
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Dax wrote:
Would Norway feel discomfitted knowing that they became part of his plan should they give him death? Why would they care? Breivik's ideas, his plans, his opinions his dis/approval, his sanity, are irrelevant.
He willingly, knowingly, murdered dozens of people. That's all we need to know.


Well, the victims and survivours report that learning the motivations and the rationale of the murder helps them to move on and manage live with the traumas he caused. But if concern for the victims and their further life is irrelevant to you, of course his explanations are irrelevant too.

The objective of the youths on the island was to work for a more human society and a less violent world. Should Breivik succeed in turning Norway more violent and less human, it would have been a disgrace to their memory and legacy. Of course we would care.

As a commetator said, this trial is for us, not for him.

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Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:06 am
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Hans wrote:
Well, the victims and survivours report that learning the motivations and the rationale of the murder helps them to move on and manage live with the traumas he caused.

How ridiculous. Oh please..learning that someone wants to murder you because you he thinks you're scum is helpful???
But let put him in a prison where he'll be climbing the walls if he winds up in the country's luxurious prison - the rock-climbing walls.

And he's likely to have a personal trainer - not a prison guard - making sure he doesn't go over the wall.

Such is life in the Halden Prison, where doing hard time means doing without HBO - and where inmates don't fear the showers because every prisoner has a private bathroom.

Breivik won't be looking out on the world from behind bars - there aren't any in the two-year-old facility. Instead, Breivik has a window in his cell - and a flat screen TV to see what else he's missing.

Each prisoner gets a mini-fridge to store snacks and there are miles of jogging trails winding through thick forests on the 75-acre site to work off the extra pounds.

Should he wind up in Halden, Breivik would be encouraged to join music classes, or jam with the prison rock band or play soccer with the guards - none of whom carry guns.

----------------------

Seems less just and more gratuitous. Or in other words, it looks like you guys may end up "thanking him." Bravo! :clap:

Hans wrote:
But if concern for the victims and their further life is irrelevant to you, of course his explanations are irrelevant too.

Umm...lets stay on the same page , the victims are the ones that are dead. If you imagine in some small way that their respective families play in any way a part of the judicial system...well, come to think of it, I wouldn't mind that at all. The revenge factor could play a nice part. But it typically doesn't. But if you're game...

Hans wrote:
The objective of the youths on the island was to work for a more human society and a less violent world.

Didn't work out too well, did it?
Hans wrote:
Should Breivik succeed in turning Norway more violent and less human, it would have been a disgrace to their memory and legacy. Of course we would care.

Strength is and alway will be the first virtue. The willingness to act with that strength is the 2nd virtue. And it is all too much a part of humanity. There's a belief in the US that many would-be mass murderers get killed before ever reaching that kill status.

I'm reminded of HG Wells The Time Machine and the "Elohim." Seems fitting.


Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:28 am
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Quote:
and where inmates don't fear the showers because every prisoner has a private bathroom.
Well, I figure that a system that has a little less rape in it is probably a good thing.


Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:21 am
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Dax wrote:
How ridiculous. Oh please..learning that someone wants to murder you because you he thinks you're scum is helpful???


Observing him ridiculing himself with his pompousness, silly argumentations and pathetic ideologies seems to help these people live with what he did to them. I don't see how it can be ridiculous that victims of a massacre are helped to live with what they have experienced.

Dax wrote:
Umm...lets stay on the same page , the victims are the ones that are dead. If you imagine in some small way that their respective families play in any way a part of the judicial system...


Those, and of course the survivors.

Dax wrote:
Hans wrote:
The objective of the youths on the island was to work for a more human society and a less violent world.


Didn't work out too well, did it?


I think that comment is very disrespectful towards those who were killed, those who were injured and the families and friends of anyone involved.

Dax wrote:
Strength is and alway will be the first virtue. The willingness to act with that strength is the 2nd virtue.


I don't agree, and I am grateful to live in a society of by and large the same opinion as me.

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\"Hans usually knows his shitt when it comes to theatre.\" - Salome

\"You all are f***ing crazy, except Hans, who is actually quite smart\" - Jennyanydots


Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:16 pm
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Hans wrote:
Observing him ridiculing himself with his pompousness, silly argumentations and pathetic ideologies seems to help these people live with what he did to them. I don't see how it can be ridiculous that victims of a massacre are helped to live with what they have experienced.

Ah, but from the already provided link, it shows that there are sympathies with his ideologies.
So..not so ridiculous nor silly. Indeed, the very idea of being "anti-multi-culturist" seems less pathetic, and more sympathetic in much of Europe.
Hans wrote:
I think that comment is very disrespectful towards those who were killed, those who were injured and the families and friends of anyone involved.

What do I care. They're dead. They're beyond feeling a thing right now. Personally, I think "thanking" the bastard for killing them is a rather poor way of penalizing a mass murderer.

Hans wrote:
Dax wrote:
Strength is and alway will be the first virtue. The willingness to act with that strength is the 2nd virtue.

I don't agree, and I am grateful to live in a society of by and large the same opinion as me.

It doesn't matter whether you agree or not. It is a fundamental truth.
One that Breivik showed the entire country. Law and order is nothing if it can't be enforced.
Still, Norway is a relatively small country. Such events are rare there anyway. And as a result, the country was completely unprepared for such violence. (Sweet jesus, the police response time was over an hour? Good god!)
It is widely believed in the US that many (not all) would-be mass murderers get shot and killed well before they reach the 2nd or 3rd victim. I have to wonder that if such an event occurs again in Norway, will you guys lie down and die...again. I'm afraid that will be probably be the case. I have a feeling your police aren't mentally equipped, let alone physically equipped, to handle violence of that sort.


Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:57 pm
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Dax wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you agree or not. It is a fundamental truth.


It is absurd continuing a discussion with you when you have presented your select choice of "fundamental truth".

Dax wrote:
Hans wrote:
I think that comment is very disrespectful towards those who were killed, those who were injured and the families and friends of anyone involved.
What do I care. They're dead.


Your level of empathy undercuts any relevant argument you may present anyway.

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\"Hans usually knows his shitt when it comes to theatre.\" - Salome

\"You all are f***ing crazy, except Hans, who is actually quite smart\" - Jennyanydots


Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:27 am
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Hans wrote:
Dax wrote:
It doesn't matter whether you agree or not. It is a fundamental truth.


It is absurd continuing a discussion with you when you have presented your select choice of "fundamental truth".

Why is it absurd?
Hans wrote:
Dax wrote:
Hans wrote:
I think that comment is very disrespectful towards those who were killed, those who were injured and the families and friends of anyone involved.
What do I care. They're dead.

Your level of empathy undercuts any relevant argument you may present anyway.

Meh..
You started this thread for a reason. Perhaps I'm granting you more intelligence than is there, but you had to know that only one person was going to post in such a thread. And I'm pretty sure you knew how I was going to respond, playing your Devil's Advocate so to speak.
So...feel better about yourself? Have you embraced the pain, and spanked your inner moppet?
:eh:


Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:13 am
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Post Re: The trial in Norway
Well Dax, not only one person would respond. There are other members of MdN who are something of the intellectual persuasion ;)

I am against capital punishment. Wasn't always, but I am now. The American judicial system is hardly perfect, and there have been enough cases of innocent people being bullied into confessions (and worse -- innocent people being locked away forever or killed for crimes they didn't commit) that each year I question more and more the "eye-for-an-eye" mentality of this country. Social justice is an elusive concept to put into practice for most countries, and while I don't know the particulars of Norway's judicial system, I have often heard it praised for its progressive and humanely compassionate prison system.

Here's the rub: in a case about anti-multiculturalism, where a mad man (because he is mad, he is broken, he is wrong and he is deranged in believing otherwise) has committed heinous crimes and been found guilty of them, doesn't the culture he has attacked (the Norwegians) have the right to conduct the trial, the punishment and the grieving in a way best befitting that culture? Maybe he would be given the death penalty here in America, but that's because our country has a thirst for vengeance, for taking the law into our own hands and meting out punishment and judgment because we view ourselves as gods above our fellow man. Americans are arrogant as hell, and we like it that way. But there is a different culture in Norway, and if they find peace in institutionalizing Breivik, in treating him humanely and kindly even though he doesn't deserve anyone's kindness (not because you can deserve humane treatment, but because we are all called upon to do so by our own conscience), then how can they act in any other way? What gives any other culture the right to say, "No Norway, you're doing it wrong. You should kill him. You should shut him away in a dark cell for life. You should punish and grieve the way we do, because that is the right way. Your way is wrong."

I dunno, it just seems that killing the culture of one society is a more pervasive and scary crime than one crazy man killing people. At least the crazy man is almost always caught.

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Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:07 am
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