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is this show really bad? 
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Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
No you haven't. You just said is, not how. Be specific. Don't just use that annoying word.


Dvarg wrote:
As I see it, good shallow shows are good because they make a lot out of little. StEx makes little out of a lot.

Yeah, that's it, really.

Think about Cole Porter: constructing a five minute song with tight limits out of bawdy puns on Shakespeare plays is making a lot out of a kernel of an idea. That's witty and entertaining.

Take for instance Joseph And The Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat - a shallow show if ever there were one. It's great. That's because TR and AlW took a relatively bare plotline and filled in the blanks with comparatively sophisticated, yet simple jokes, musically and textually. It makes one admire and enjoy how they got a lot out of little.

StEx is the opposite. There are some bawdy but fun jokes there. But they drown in the overall concept of the show, with it's unending string of pastiche music, tacky sets and costumes and gimmicks. There just is too much. The enjoyment of clever simplicity is lost.


How can one be more specific?

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Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:16 am
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Like give exact examples from the show. You gave no justification for your statements. Without examples (good ones) your argument carries no weight.

I may be being petty, but it's one of my favorite shows.


Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:32 am
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Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
Without examples (good ones) your argument carries no weight.


Take fgor instance the song AC/DC, which is a song I enjoy. What's appealing about it, is for example it's weird, unbalanced time signature. It creates an unstable feeling which is in line with the song's puns on the electriccar being bisexual. It also has corny convulted lines that I enjoy (for example if you get me bored, I hit my key board - makes me giggle every time).

Now, what makes the song justify it's position in the show? It's a rather long song, so it must either be very funny or it's content must be very important to the show as a whole.

My objections are

1) the bisexual innuendo isn't in itself fun

2) there are jokes, but they are too few and too uninventive for such a long song

3) the bisexuality of the character doesn't add anything to the show

4) the character himself does not really have much significance in the show anyway

This is one example that counts for a lot in StEx. It is to a high degree dedicated to character songs that aren't funny, don't reveal much about characters we don't need to know much about anyway - yet goes on very long.

In other words, the songs with all the visual aspects, choreography ets makes actually very little out of very much.

One can compare this to the Arbiter's song in Chess. In and of itself I can enjoy it as a tacky and catchy song, but it has little real purpose in the show. It is a weakness that StEx seems to be constructed around.

Mind you, AC/DC is a song i actually like in StEx.

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Mon Jul 13, 2009 6:56 am
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It sets up more than his being bisexual. AC/DC sets up the entire personality of Electra. He is the ultimate diva, so he needs a big flashy number, he even enters with fireworks. It is important to show the control that he he can over the coatches, which is essential to having a conflict in the show as he asks Pearl to race with him, not Rusty. Electra's song also demonstrates his obvious wealth and success, indicating why Caboose would bother to appease him, and what he has to gain by helping him. Electra is the other major race compeditor, to face Greaseball. Without that, Greaseball effectively goes unchallenged, as you know thae the minor national engines can't win.

Personally, I think one of the most clever bits about it are the roles of his components. Like the entourage of any diva.
Money truck-accountant
Repair Truck-hair/makeup
Armormants truck-bodyguard
Freezer truck-caterer
dinamite truck-publicist


Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:44 pm
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Well, I think the song does a poor job of establishing this, which is rather much ado about nothing anyway. Instead of actual motives for action here, there are mechanical reasons why the characters do what they do. Which could have been quite ok if the show actually were fun.

Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
Money truck-accountant
Repair Truck-hair/makeup
Armormants truck-bodyguard
Freezer truck-caterer
dinamite truck-publicist


I think these are rather obvious and cheap puns. Now, I like obvious and cheap puns. But they aren't good.

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Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:45 am
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Dvarg wrote:
Well, I think the song does a poor job of establishing this, which is rather much ado about nothing anyway. Instead of actual motives for action here, there are mechanical reasons why the characters do what they do.


Uh, what?


Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:08 am
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Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
He is the ultimate diva, so he needs a big flashy number, he even enters with fireworks.


This is your idea of an entire personality?

Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
It is important to show the control that he he can over the coatches, which is essential to having a conflict in the show as he asks Pearl to race with him, not Rusty. Electra's song also demonstrates his obvious wealth and success, indicating why Caboose would bother to appease him, and what he has to gain by helping him.


You lose focus. None of this is established in the song, except that he’s irresistible. Which is informed in a blunt “this is my characteristica”-manner of a terribly clumsy presentation-of-character song.

Though being beside the point, is anyway a very wooden set up of causality. Pearl races with him because he controls the coaches, and Caboose helps him because of the gain. It is very unconvincing as real motives. Which still wouldn't have mattered if the show happened to be fun.

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\"You all are f***ing crazy, except Hans, who is actually quite smart\" - Jennyanydots


Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:32 am
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Dvarg wrote:
Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
He is the ultimate diva, so he needs a big flashy number, he even enters with fireworks.


This is your idea of an entire personality?

No, but since that is part of who he is, he cannot have a small, quiet arrival. It would be totally out of character for him to be subtle. He is announceing his entry to the race.

Dvarg wrote:
Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
It is important to show the control that he he can over the coatches, which is essential to having a conflict in the show as he asks Pearl to race with him, not Rusty. Electra's song also demonstrates his obvious wealth and success, indicating why Caboose would bother to appease him, and what he has to gain by helping him.


You lose focus. None of this is established in the song, except that he’s irresistible. Which is informed in a blunt “this is my characteristica”-manner of a terribly clumsy presentation-of-character song.

Though being beside the point, is anyway a very wooden set up of causality. Pearl races with him because he controls the coaches, and Caboose helps him because of the gain. It is very unconvincing as real motives. Which still wouldn't have mattered if the show happened to be fun.

It is shown through his use of "magnetism" to litterally puppet Pearl.

As for the motives of Caboose and Pearl, C.B. is slightly nuts. As in mentally unstable, so anything he does cannot nesesarrily be put down to rational motives. As he say when asked who's side he is on "I'm on mine!" If it benefits him, he does it, regardless. His only true care appears to be Dinah, so helping Electra defeat Greaseball also may help in that aim, but it backfires as the loss humbles Greaseball and he goes crawling back to Dinah, but she accepts him back.

As for Pearl...

Purse: Pearl, you've been honoured
Pearl, you've been chosen
Electra selected you for this race
Rusty: He has a coach!
Purse: His coach has a head ache
He's chosen Pearl to race in her place.
Please come, I'll be fired if you don't.
Pearl: Can he whistle?
Purse: No, AC trains don't.

Pearl: Rusty needs me.
Which way should I go?
With Electra, say I'll let him know.

Rusty: What's all this? You have a partner!
Pearl: Well...
Rusty: Yes you do!
We're all set!
Pearl: I always said that if someone new...
Rusty: You fell for the posing, you fell for the star!
Pearl: You don't understand, that not how things are.
I must have time.
Rusty: But Pearl..
Pearl: No, let me work it out my way
I must be free to leave you Rusty,
That's the only way I'm free to stay.


Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:47 am
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Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
As for the motives of Caboose and Pearl, C.B. is slightly nuts. As in mentally unstable, so anything he does cannot nesesarrily be put down to rational motives. As he say when asked who's side he is on "I'm on mine!" If it benefits him, he does it, regardless. His only true care appears to be Dinah, so helping Electra defeat Greaseball also may help in that aim, but it backfires as the loss humbles Greaseball and he goes crawling back to Dinah, but she accepts him back.


I totally have no idea what you are trying to prove. The "characters" of StEx comes through as utterly unconvincing as real people with real motives, which they aren't intended to be anyway. So it doesn't matter, really.

The show is obviously meant to entertain, which it fails to do, because it makes too little out of too much.

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Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:59 am
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I still don't get that statement.

And how can you say that it fails to entertain when you said that you enjoy it? :?


Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:21 am
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Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
I still don't get that statement.


Well, I provided you of both the example of Cole Porter and Joseph And The Amazing Technicolour Dreamcoat. It's about staring with an idea within a very limited phrame, then making a lot out of it by very economic means. StEx is very ineconomical in it's storytelling.

Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
And how can you say that it fails to entertain when you said that you enjoy it? :?


It's not as if one is either totally entertained or not entertained at all. There are also different was to be entertained. StEx entertains me in certain parts, but not as a whole and not in the way I consider good. When it occationally entertains me, it is in a way I consider cheesy and tacky.

If you really think StEx demonstrates economic storytelling, I must give in, because I think your concept of "economic" just is so different from what it means to most people.

EDIT:

The word I meant to use was probably "economical". I failed to distinghuis between "econimic" and "economical" because there is no distinktion in Norwegian.

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Last edited by Hans on Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:42 am
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I think it's horrible to refer to 'economic' story telling.


Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:33 am
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