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Love Never dies announced etc.. SAMPLE TRACK 
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livemodernx3 wrote:
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Its lyrics are generic and boring, and it doesn't achieve anything dramaturgically or characterwise.


I've never found the lyrics to be so boring, but you are correct in them being generic.


"Generic,"meaning they could fit in another situation in another show easily?


In the song's history, it has made the rounds from being the tune to "A Married Man" meant for another situation, was performed at Sydmonton with changed lyrics, performed on the OLC and in the show with the lyrics changed somewhat once again (for the better, in my opinion), and there have been minor changes since then.

As it appears in the show, I think the lyrics fit that situation very well and would not fit in another show easily. The words tell of how darkness and music can release inhibitions, and that is just what the Phantom wants his music and the darkness to do for the girl he has brought down to his "Lair."

"Let your mind start a journey through a strange new world
Leave all thoughts of the world you knew before
Let your soul take you where you long to be
Only then can you belong to me..."

This isn't some generic lover singing a love song to his girl friend.

Also, the lyrics are more-than-average poetic, making considerable use of figurative language, if that counts for anything. I don't suppose it does for those who consider them generic and boring.


Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:17 pm
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livemodernx3 wrote:
But what then is an example of lyrics to you that are not generic or boring?


Well, the song is obviously from a completely different context, but The British Admiral's part of Please, Hello is the most perfect set of lyrics I know:

Quote:
Hello, I come with letters from Her Majesty Victoria
Who, learning how you're trading now, sang "Hallelujah, Gloria!"
And sent me to convey to you her positive euphoria
As well as little gifts from Britain's various emporia.

Her letters do contain a few proposals to your Emperor
Which if, of course, he won't endorse, will put in her in a temper or,
More happily, should he agree, will serve to keep her placid, or
At least till I am followed by a permanent ambassador.

Her Majesty considers the arrangements to be tentative
Until we ship a proper diplomatic representative.
We don't foresee that you will be the least bit argumentative,
So please ignore the man-of-war we brought as a preventative.

Great Britain wishes her position clear and indisputable:
We're not amused at being used and therefore stand immutable.
And though you Japs are foxy chaps and damnably inscrutable —
Reviewing it from where we sit, the facts are irrefutable —
And thus, in short, a single port is patently unsuitable!

The British feel these latest dealings verge on immorality.
The element of precedent imperils our neutrality.
We're rather vexed, your giving extraterritoriality.
We must insist you offer this to every nationality!

One moment, please, I think that these assure us exclusivity
For Western ports and other sorts of maritime activity,
And if you mean to intervene, as is the Dutch proclivity,
We'll blow you nits to little bits, with suitable festivity.


Pastiche wrote:
"Generic,"meaning they could fit in another situation in another show easily?


More that the chosen words feel like standard phrases of MYSTERY and SEDUCTION and DARK ROMANCE rather than feeling like they belong to a real individual.

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Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:25 am
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Dvarg wrote:
livemodernx3 wrote:
But what then is an example of lyrics to you that are not generic or boring?


Well, the song is obviously from a completely different context, but The British Admiral's part of Please, Hello is the most perfect set of lyrics I know:

Quote:
Hello, I come with letters from Her Majesty Victoria
Who, learning how you're trading now, sang "Hallelujah, Gloria!"
And sent me to convey to you her positive euphoria
As well as little gifts from Britain's various emporia.

Her letters do contain a few proposals to your Emperor
Which if, of course, he won't endorse, will put in her in a temper or,
More happily, should he agree, will serve to keep her placid, or
At least till I am followed by a permanent ambassador.

Her Majesty considers the arrangements to be tentative
Until we ship a proper diplomatic representative.
We don't foresee that you will be the least bit argumentative,
So please ignore the man-of-war we brought as a preventative.

Great Britain wishes her position clear and indisputable:
We're not amused at being used and therefore stand immutable.
And though you Japs are foxy chaps and damnably inscrutable —
Reviewing it from where we sit, the facts are irrefutable —
And thus, in short, a single port is patently unsuitable!

The British feel these latest dealings verge on immorality.
The element of precedent imperils our neutrality.
We're rather vexed, your giving extraterritoriality.
We must insist you offer this to every nationality!

One moment, please, I think that these assure us exclusivity
For Western ports and other sorts of maritime activity,
And if you mean to intervene, as is the Dutch proclivity,
We'll blow you nits to little bits, with suitable festivity.


Witty and clever...perfect? They are, of course from a completely different kind of song.

Pastiche wrote:
"Generic,"meaning they could fit in another situation in another show easily?


More that the chosen words feel like standard phrases of MYSTERY and SEDUCTION and DARK ROMANCE rather than feeling like they belong to a real individual.


Well, they don't mention a dark and stormy night. :wink:

I think I've run across the phrase "darkest dreams" in other works of mystery or seduction or dark romance, and, of course, the idea of a "soaring sprit" isn't exactly original, but I don't think any of the phrases are standard phrases although they *feel* that way to you.

The words certainly suggest a character and situation of mystery, seduction, and dark romance. The situation and a character of that nature are common in such stories, but I don't feel the words and phrases are.


Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:03 pm
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Hold everything. I think I might know one reason why you think the lyric you quoted is perfect. It is unique to the situation and the character and couldn't be used in any other situation by any other character in any other play, as is
Gilbert and Sulllivan's "Modern Major General."

You can probably imagine "Music of the Night" being sung by some other dark, romantic hero...a Heathcliff or a Dracula or whoever.

That might be possible if any other such hero was a musician. It is made clear both before he sings the song and afterward that the Phantom is a musician, a singing teacher, a composer, who performs briefly in his own opera.

"The Music of the Night," through words and music, demonstrates how music can "caress you," "possess you," and let "your fantasies unwind."

The lyric and the music and the blocking work together to the show--- and not just to tell---of the seductive power of music and darkness.

Perhaps you can think of another romantic hero that this song could fit, but I can't.


Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:51 pm
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RainbowJude wrote:
I suppose it's meant to be Love Never Dies' equivalent of that song from The Phantom of the Opera. It's very much in the adult contemporary vein of the more poppy Josh Groban stuff like "You Raise Me Up", "The Prayer" or "You're Still You" and I don't think its particularly memorable and the lyrics tend toward the banal.



The lyrics "tend" toward the banal? LOL!


Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:52 pm
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Post Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs
RainbowJude wrote:
Anyway, regarding "Till I Hear You Sing" - well, it's better than "Music of the Night". :-#

Damask and Dark wrote:
Do you really think it's better than "Music of the Night", though?

OK, maybe I was overhasty in my appraisal of the new song. I guess I made it sound like I liked it better that I do. It really is mediocre adult contemporary pop at best: the Phantom goes Josh Groban, and not nearly as well.

But that doesn't make "Music of the Night" a good piece of dramatic musical theatre writing by any means. I stick by every word I've said about it and although I'm terribly sorry to disappoint Pastiche in this regard, this has nothing to do with whatever my other "likes" in musical theatre might be.

RainbowJude wrote:
I suppose it's meant to be Love Never Dies' equivalent of that song from The Phantom of the Opera. It's very much in the adult contemporary vein of the more poppy Josh Groban stuff like "You Raise Me Up", "The Prayer" or "You're Still You" and I don't think its particularly memorable and the lyrics tend toward the banal.

Mama Rose wrote:
The lyrics "tend" toward the banal? LOL!

I was being diplomatic! :mrgreen:

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Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:21 pm
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Pastiche wrote:
Hold everything. I think I might know one reason why you think the lyric you quoted is perfect. It is unique to the situation and the character and couldn't be used in any other situation by any other character in any other play, as is
Gilbert and Sulllivan's "Modern Major General."


That, and the rhyme scheme and language is so incredibly tight, inventive and witty; and it propels the idea of the song forward yet it never strays from the character and situation.

But this is the most perfect set of lyrics, imo. Any other example is pale in comparishion, so it's quite unfair.

Pastiche wrote:
That might be possible if any other such hero was a musician. It is made clear both before he sings the song and afterward that the Phantom is a musician, a singing teacher, a composer, who performs briefly in his own opera.


I think this is a somewhat superficial defence of the song "belonging to" the character. It's difficult to explain, but ideally (and I'm not saying it is easy by any means) a song should feel like it comes from the character in a more indirect way.

In really good songs, the identification does not come from the mentioning of the character's occupation and other direct allusions, but rather in the choice of words put in his or her mouth, for example.

Perhaps Hammerstein was the greatest lyricist in this regard, his characters use language that distinctly reflects their social background, view of life and shortcomings, without exactly pointing it out. That's why for example I often find those lyrics boring, because they reflects characters I have little in common with. But that's also why they are good.

livemodernx3 wrote:
[...] it does usually flaunt the fact that the Phantom is a damned good vocalist.


Haha, I think this is a main objection to the song. I really don't like songs to be a vehicle for showing off a voice. The voice should show off the text, not the other way around.

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Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:06 am
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Post Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs
RainbowJude wrote:
But that doesn't make "Music of the Night" a good piece of dramatic musical theatre writing by any means. I stick by every word I've said about it and although I'm terribly sorry to disappoint Pastiche in this regard, this has nothing to do with whatever my other "likes" in musical theatre might be.


That's all right. I can live with it. I still have my family, my friends, the sun in the mornin' and the moon at night...

I rather wonder what Dvarg thinks about the social background, view of life, and shortcomings of the Phantom could have been subtly revealed beyond his being obsessed with and in love with music and the soprano he's lured into his lair, but I'm sure he could answer and perhaps maintain that such things could also be better revealed in tightly written, clever forced rhyme.


Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:55 am
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Post Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs
Pastiche wrote:
I rather wonder what Dvarg thinks about the social background, view of life, and shortcomings of the Phantom could have been subtly revealed beyond his being obsessed with and in love with music and the soprano he's lured into his lair, but I'm sure he could answer and perhaps maintain that such things could also be better revealed in tightly written, clever forced rhyme.


Haha, this is such an obvious could you do it better yourself? argumentation.

Writers have made much more interresting lyrics for much simpler and less important characters than the Phantom.

And, what exactly equals clever rhyme with forced rhyme?

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Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:10 am
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ATM I'm with Mungojerrie_rt - 'The Music of the Night' should be shorter. Beyond that I'm not particularly attached to it or hating of it.

Does anybody have thoughts on what might work better in its place? I'm not arguing that the song must be regarded as adequate unless we can top it. I'm just curious. What does one do when one has dramatically brought one's dream girl to one's creepy lair? Everything I think of seems amusingly anticlimactic and awkward. Even the thought of Christine and the Phantom having an extended non-sung conversation seems wrong somehow. (No wonder she conveniently faints for most of her time alone with the Phantom!) Or do you think that the Phantom *does* need a seduction song at that point in the show, but just a different one?


Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:50 am
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Barberous wrote:
Does anybody have thoughts on what might work better in its place? I'm not arguing that the song must be regarded as adequate unless we can top it. I'm just curious. What does one do when one has dramatically brought one's dream girl to one's creepy lair?


That’s not such a dumb idea.

In my opinion, there are at least tow aspects that I’d wish were more illuminated in the show.

First of all, and most importantly, I think it’s very unclear what the musical is about – what ideas is it meant to carry? I think the answer least awkwardly must be something about inner beauty versus outer beauty, one’s need to construct one’s own reality if one is of some reason alienated from society and the negative effects of such a strategy.

I think this could be conveyed as subtext, if we decide to keep the tune and substitute the lyrics. The Phantom could for example elaborate on how composing music can be somewhat similar to architecture, he did build (parts of) the opera house, if I remember correctly. His need for Christine could have been more deeply explored through such an approach.

The second main issue I have with the musical, is Christine’s perception of the Phantom’s association with her father. I think this unclear relationship could have been taken advantage of in the lyrics, making it more plausible that Christine trust this weirdo. It could also be make clear what she believes the Phantom is, a sexual being, a father figure, a spirit sent from her father or whatever impression she’s under.

Both these aspects could serve to give the song actual substance. As it is, the song is mainly a long description of the situation. Also, too much seems to have been left “open for interpretation”, when in reality it’s just unclear and confusing.

This only the first ideas that popped into my head, and I don't think more rhymes in itself would improve the song.

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Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:38 am
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Dvarg wrote:
Barberous wrote:
Does anybody have thoughts on what might work better in its place? I'm not arguing that the song must be regarded as adequate unless we can top it. I'm just curious. What does one do when one has dramatically brought one's dream girl to one's creepy lair?


That’s not such a dumb idea.

In my opinion, there are at least tow aspects that I’d wish were more illuminated in the show.

First of all, and most importantly, I think it’s very unclear what the musical is about – what ideas is it meant to carry? I think the answer least awkwardly must be something about inner beauty versus outer beauty, one’s need to construct one’s own reality if one is of some reason alienated from society and the negative effects of such a strategy.

I think this could be conveyed as subtext, if we decide to keep the tune and substitute the lyrics. The Phantom could for example elaborate on how composing music can be somewhat similar to architecture, he did build (parts of) the opera house, if I remember correctly. His need for Christine could have been more deeply explored through such an approach.


See, you do have some ideas. I didn't expect you to re-write the song before our very eyes.

When in the show would you have the Phantom elaborate on composing music being similar to architecture? Do you mean in the song or in the subtext? I know this was just a first idea, but that kind of exposition sounds like a real show-stopper, especially in a song that is the first real interaction between the Phantom and Christine (not counting the frenetic running around that leads to the boat bringing them to the lair---although she does discover during all that, that he is just a man).

Dvarg wrote:
The second main issue I have with the musical, is Christine’s perception of the Phantom’s association with her father. I think this unclear relationship could have been taken advantage of in the lyrics, making it more plausible that Christine trust this weirdo. It could also be make clear what she believes the Phantom is, a sexual being, a father figure, a spirit sent from her father or whatever impression she’s under.


You would have the song that appears at this point in the show a duet, then, including her perceptions? That's possible, of course.

Events and dialogue that precede "Music of the Night" make clear, first, that Christine considers the Phantom, who is just a mysterious voice at that time, an angel sent by her father and an incredible teacher. During the descent to the lair and the song that follows, "Music of the Night," she discovers he is just a man, and if she misses that he is a sexual being during the song, she is in even more of a trance than she appears to be. The father figure business could be made clearer, but I'm not sure where it would best fit in.


Dvarg wrote:
Both these aspects could serve to give the song actual substance. As it is, the song is mainly a long description of the situation. Also, too much seems to have been left “open for interpretation”, when in reality it’s just unclear and confusing.


Others, it seems, agree with you. Either they are the majority, or anyone who thinks the song is OK as it is, is shy about speaking up.


Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:32 am
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