Last Midnight - Meaning in context?
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Author:  SweeneyTad [ Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

This is all really fascinating. A little absurd, but fascinating. Like the fallace shaped tower? Come on now... it's a tower. Just a tower. Also, the argument that the second act is its own entity and is therefore removed from the first act is completely false. In fact, the argument that the fairytales follow their original Brothers Grim stories at all is ridiculous. Short of beginning and ending in the same fashions, none of them are the same. Hell, the Baker's made up.

Also, in any regards to last midnight, I'll see your "theory" and raise you one "Boom, Crunch." It was the original song in place of Last Midnight that was cut for inadequacy. None of the evidence presented for the rape theory in the Last Midnight is present or represented in Boom, Crunch, which is obviously the guide and main idea behind Last Midnight, seeing as how Last Midnight is so clearly derivative of it.

P.S. To anyone who is interested, here is a link to Boom, Crunch. It's sung by Bernadette, I believe.

Author:  Jman383 [ Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:

Tyguy wrote:
In the original fairytale there was nothing about beans, or the Witch being turned ugly, or anything else related to that. Have you even read it?

I'm not quite sure where I mentioned the beans specifically being in the original tale, but if I did, clearly I was mistaken. I *thought* I was only mentioning the beans in reference to this show directly. If I did otherwise, I apologize. Though I can't remember doing so.

Tyguy wrote:
And my interpretation of her saying "Robbing me, raping me!" was her being melodramatic- so she would seem like more of a victim than The Baker's father. Like, rob was not a strong enough word, so she quickly amended it into "rape". And, if that's wrong, I would guess that all that rape meant was 'taking advantage of me' but not in a sexual way, not sexually taking advantage of her.

Yes, I realize that originally rape means "to steal". Hence why I referred to the MM as "taking" the Witch's ability to have children away from her, as well as her virginity. I believe that's how it came to mean what it does today. In any case, my comment regarding WORD CHOICE still stands. Sondheim knew his audience and played with the connotation of the word.

Tyguy wrote:
P.S. what's all this about a phallus-shaped (I'm sure you meant to say 'phallus', not 'fallace') tower? I thought it looked distinctly like a castle Chess piece. I'd be interested in seeing any pictures of penile towers that you can use to convince us otherwise. It seems to me like you're playing the Perverted Game- taking anything you see or anything anyone says and put it into a sexual context. It's a popular game at my Junior High School.

For starters, let's cool it. Yes, I made a spelling mistake. Oops. Apologies. Moving on. Regardless of what it looks like in the production, throughout history it has often been drawn as being phallic. Look at the Wikipedia page for instance:

Even the hair looks like a vein......

Oh, and as far as the sexual content is concerned, have you read anything from the 18th and 19th century? Believe me, they were just as if not more lewd in their literature than we are today. Metaphors included. I suggest you pick up a good book from the era, fairy tale or not. I highly recommend Haywood's Fantomina if you're in the mood for some literal sexual content ala amatory fiction. And that's pretty tame compared to the infamous pornographic writing of the time of the time. But what do I know? I'm apparently in Middle School.

Tyguy wrote:
Couldn't all the things the witch does just be blamed on the fact that she's evil...?

Dear Lord, I hope you're not an actor. But, if you are, stick to Melodrama. You're logic is blatantly suited very well for it.

Tyguy wrote:
EDIT- One more thing I want to point out- losing magic beans that can grow to enormous heights and release giants into the kingdom does indeed qualify as danger. And Act One and Act Two are part of the same show- why does it matter what events happened in which act? Like I said above, nothing about the witch was mentioned in the original fairytale other than she was wicked and had a garden. No beans, no curse on a baker, no ugly spell... those were added in the musical.

Oh lordy. Look at the lyrics of her Lament. She's referring to being in danger in context of being in her mother's garden. The beans, though lost, were not a threat, as they had not been planted. And they never were. She's saying she WAS in danger. Not potential danger. ACTUAL danger. Comparing that to the potential of the beans being planted and giants coming down is like saying a policeman carrying an unloaded gun down the street is dangerous. Besides, she had probably assumed the MM fed them to his wife rather than planted them. "Beans will bring you food, son." They have nothing to do with the danger the Witch was in. And if so, why the transformation from her mother? Was that just a random punishment of her mother's? To give her claws and a hunch? What would be the moral in taking away her beauty had it nothing to do with the "actual garden", as you're suggesting, or those actual beans? Please, enlighten me.

Furthermore, you have to keep in mind that children's stories such as the Grimm fairy tales were meant to instruct children on how to behave. And after all, the moral of Rapunzel is that if a girl disobeys her mother and has sexual relations with a man prior to marriage, she will be severely punished and disowned by her mother. Interesting. Now wouldn't it only make sense, with that whole recurring theme of the parental cycle instituted in ITW (The Baker and his father, for example), that Lapine and Sondheim created that for the Witch and Rapunzel as well? Then again, it's not like the characters are related or anything....oh, wait. Oops.

Author:  Tyguy [ Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

Dear Jman,
Stop being so condescending. Rudeness doesn't suit you, but you do resort to it often. Personal remarks are not appropriate. This is not an argument, really its more of an informational debate.. or something.

And yes, I am an actor, thanks for your concern. I am also intelligent, so quit patronizing me. The theater-related stab was a failure, also.

I am also not arguing with you- there's no point. I could never win... but not because you have a better argument.

Seeing as how Sondheim really did know his audience, it stands to reason that you're one of very few people with this standpoint.

And hey, don't be so touchy. I wasn't worried about your spelling, more about what you meant. Anyway, is there some sort of unspoken law over the centuries that all fairy tales are sexual in nature? I'm sure its easy to interpret them that way, but after hundreds of years of being told and retold (even if sexual information was intended at the beginning) it would have been filtered out.

Maybe I'm just as stupid as you think I am, but your last two paragraphs make little sense to me. I will add this, though. The witch is not Rapunzel's mother but is her kidnapper. She locked her in a tower long before she ever had sexual relations with a man... is that what you mean? Or the casting out to the desert bit? That does seem completely lacking in compassion to me, but evidently blanket sweep terms like that are not good.


P.S. I apologize deeply and sincerely for any personal remarks I made.
P.P.S. If you think that tower looks like a penis, you must have one friggin ugly dick.

Author:  Jman383 [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

Ty guy, you just went on a rant about how rude and condescending I am. Funny. Have you read some of your closing remarks? Are you still in high school? You must be. And that's not rude. It's just an observation. Clearly you are, otherwise, you wouldn't be making references to my penis of all things hahaha.

Also, I am very sorry that you have read so little on this type of literature. When you get to college and maybe even senior year of high school (if you are lucky, most high schools don't offer it), you'll be exposed to some of the analysis I am discussing. Mind you, I do not pretend to be a literary scholar. Far from it. But I am familiar with the Grimms as well as the analysis behind their stories. So stop acting as though I am "alone" in my thoughts. Even if you read the duration of this thread you'll realize that that couldn't be further from the point. Furthermore, read some books, my friend. Read some books. Oh, and if you find that condescending... I'm not sure what to say. It's just advice. Take it, don't take it. I don't care. Just a thought.

In any case, back to the discussion itself, of course the Witch isn't Rapunzel's actual mother. But she fills that position in her life. She raises her from infancy. She mine as well be her mother. She teaches her the world and it is the Witch that influences her life, not her actual mother who dies. In fact, if I remember correctly, when she runs into the Witch in the desert and recognizes her, she says, "Mother?" Case in point.

And as far as what I mean with the tower, yes, she locks her in the tower BECAUSE she does not want her meeting a man and having such a horrible fate as she did herself. She is protecting Rapunzel from the world. The world that caused her (The Witch) to look the way she does now. If the Witch hadn't had sexual affairs with the MM, she wouldn't have been turned into a hag. She blames him, and all men for that matter. So she protects Rapunzel from them at all costs. Then, once Rapunzel does have her own encounter with a man, she loses it and disowns her for not being able to be "safe behind walls"... you know, as she could not. It's all in the lyrics. Sondheim couldn't have made it more clear.

P.S. Again, read some books. You have no idea about phallus' in the media and literature. Cigarette companies,for example, used them for, not in the cigarettes themselves. But the things around them in the ads. Look it up. Camel, Marlboro, etc etc.

P.P.S. I have a lovely penis, thank you for asking. I can send you a picture if you like. You know, if you're into that sort of thing :-)

Author:  Tyguy [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

Actually, I'm still in Junior High. Having fun arguing with a fourteen year old?

Okay, you constantly claim you are absolutely right about what you say, with no room for error... Where's your proof? Any evidence? None? Nope, you just made it up, or heard it somewhere and pieced this conclusion together. Just cause it sounds right to you doesn't mean it is, okay? Your actual theory isn't enraging enough that it actually provokes me to respond... it's your attitude that everyone else is wrong! You demand respect when you don't deserve it! Please, if I'm such an idiot compared to your vast, superior knowledge, let me share a quote that I believe fits the circumstances... "Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." (I think that's Terry Pratchett? Whoever said that is very clever.)

You're so obsessed with the idea that behind every ancient story, every bit of architecture, every action is a world of codes and secrets that you completely miss the real beauty of a fairy tale like Rapunzel. (some people get fed up with reality now and again- that's what stories are for.) But actually, all a story is for is hiding giant penises behind, isn't it? I mean, I can't even imagine how you would piece the penis-tower thing together. Please tell me that you visited some crazy fairy tale nerd site and read it, and didn't come up with it yourself? That would make you a lot more creditable. (Not that, even then, I'd credit you, like you care.)

By the way, fairy tales were not written by literary geniuses. They were written by parents, alright? I don't need to read awesome books to understand children's stories! I mean, if you look hard enough you can find anything. But you're the first person I've ever met who's found a phallus-shaped tower... Fairy tales were not written for analytical adults. They were written for children, who spread a layer of ignorance and adventure and wonder over it all, who took it at face value and didn't look for reasons. Why should they have?

And, another closing remark from me, I don't think you're as brilliant as you believe yourself to be. Get some humility and perspective, and then go around telling people they're wrong.

And I do not want to see your penis, you freak.

Author:  Jman383 [ Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

Haha no, I'm NOT having fun with a fourteen year-old. But that's besides the point. Age is but a number. Youth does not necessarily mean ignorance nor does maturity guarantee wisdom. I don't care that you're 14. I care that you're ignorant.

Also, for the record, I haven't been protesting that I'm right no matter what etc etc, I'm just trying to explain my theory and how it is supported by the text. Oh, and it IS supported by the text. Read this entire thread. I feel as though I've done a very good job of that.

But, after all, it is a "theory", a postulate, hypothesis, whatever you wanna call it. It's not proven. I'm just stating it in a matter of fact way, because I believe it to be right, especially given the evidence to support it. I understand everything everyone else has had to say. I just (politely) disagree. If you feel as though I have been going around tearing everyone down, I apologize. Not my intention. And just so ya knows, I'm a veteran of these boards. You are not. Case in point= I DO have respect from many users on here. You do not. Furthermore, many users do understand my sense of humor, and dry attitude. You, again, as a newbie (which there is nothing wrong with), do not. I won't hold it against you, but please do not hold it against me, either. You know nothing about me. Therefore, stop jumping to incorrect conclusions.

Moreover, you have proven to have absolutely no idea about the world of literary analysis. Thus, stop commenting on it. You sound incredibly foolish. Just google search "phallus in Rapunzel" and see the results you get. Hell, I'll do it for you: ... 11&bih=609

Read the search results, m'boy. Am I really so crazy? Gimme a break. You've clearly done absolutely no research on the topic, therefore, stop protesting ridiculous things about me and my knowledge of this area of literature. Although my own is not as scholarly and academic as some, it as least microscopic. I wish I could say the same for yours.

Also, the closing remark regarding my penis was a joke, clearly. Just keep in mind, if you wanna start with me (and my penis), be prepared to finish with me.

Author:  LaVieBoheme [ Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

God, can you guys PLEASE quit arguing?! Seriously, I love reading threads like this where people spend about 3 pages trying to analyse something and actually complimenting other people's findings/thoughts. Then it has to be ruined by a pointless "mine's-bigger-than-yours" style of argument and it just destroys the whole atmosphere of thoughtfulness that has been built up over the rest of the thread. It seems to be a disease on this entire forum. ](*,)

@Jman383: Your analysis of the whole "beans/tower/transformation" issue is really quite fascinating. I do not agree with all of it , but I do applaud you for thinking it through so carefully. At the risk of provoking another argument I will say this, however: I do agree with Tyguy that sometimes you can come across as condescending (not your words, more the tone implied by your words). As I am not familiar with your style of writing, I will say no more on the matter, but it may be worth your while just thinking about how your writing can seem to people like us who don't know you or your manner of writing.

@Tyguy: I must say, I agree with your version on the above issues in the show more than Jman383's, and the fact that you're 14 and able to produce this level of analysis is actually astonishing to me (a lot of 14 year olds I know wouldn't be able to tear themselves away from X-Factor long enough to think of something like this). Again, though, I will say you shouldn't be so quick to jump into arguments. People on here seem to be somewhat aggressive over certain issues so it's probably better to just ignore people when they begin provoking you rather than striking back.

This is just simple advice by a 17 year old who has just come out of an exam so take it or leave it, but this type of problem seems common on this site and it's not nice for anyone. I am not attacking either of you personally, just saying what I think based on your previous posts. Now, I implore you again to stop fighting and appreciate each other's opinions. You don't have to agree with them but please try to remain civil to each other.

Rant/plea over.

Author:  ActingDude17 [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

I would also say not to believe or claim that Jman is so radical and alone in his viewpoints. I agree with his (in my opinion, excellent) analysis of Into the Woods and the Grimms' fairy tales the show is based on. I'm not the only one who does, either.

Author:  Jman383 [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

Thank you, Keaton :-)

Author:  Tyguy [ Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

LaVieBoheme wrote:

@Tyguy: I must say, I agree with your version on the above issues in the show more than Jman383's, and the fact that you're 14 and able to produce this level of analysis is actually astonishing to me (a lot of 14 year olds I know wouldn't be able to tear themselves away from X-Factor long enough to think of something like this). Again, though, I will say you shouldn't be so quick to jump into arguments. People on here seem to be somewhat aggressive over certain issues so it's probably better to just ignore people when they begin provoking you rather than striking back.

Well, thanks! That means a lot, coming from such an obviously smart individual like yourself ;) And don't worry... arguing over the internet with someone I've never met over the sexual connotations of fairy tales wasn't really my idea of a good time. It made me feel quite pathetic, in all honesty. I was actually trying to say I didn't want to argue though, it's not nice knowing I failed to get that point across. Not that I'm confused by it... I mean, I was arguing, after all. But I'll take your advice, it's good.

And hey, Jman... you aren't a nice person... okay? Not that you care, or anything. If it makes you feel good to compare yourself with me, go ahead. At the very least, I've got to be far more humble than you. :roll:

Author:  Jman383 [ Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

Well yes, you're right. I don't really care. But mainly because it's not true. Essentially, again, stop jumping to conclusions about me. You don't know me. I haven't killed anyone, I haven't been mortally and/or radically offensive on this forum. I called you ignorant on this issue. Because you are. It's not a crime. I'm not even judging you for it. I'm just asking you stop protesting things about my (admittedly minute) knowledge of literary analysis on this genre of literature, when you know nothing about it. It's silly. One of the most uniting aspects of the Grimm tales in the show are in fact the phallic symbols throughout them. The beanstalk, the tower, and I mean, they even put a penis on the Wolf in this very show! It's a theme.

In any case, let's all play nice. I apologize if I've been considered offensive or rude on this topic. I will do my best to change my tone :-)

Now, let's get back to the ACTUAL TOPIC! :D

Author:  Tyguy [ Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last Midnight - Meaning in context?

Am I bovvered? :)

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