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Last Midnight - Meaning in context? 
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TheWitch wrote:
She couldn't stay content behind walls. Good Lord....


Even if that is the case, you're still missing the point. The witch wasn't HAPPY behind walls. WHY WASN'T SHE HAPPY? She was beautiful, she had a thriving literal garden according to you. She actually had FREEDOM compared to Rapunzel. Please, explain why she wasn't happy, because I'd love to hear your explanation. I will have you know, however, the actual reason is the same as why Rapunzel wasn't happy. SHE DIDN'T HAVE A MAN, and was forbidden to by her own mother. Don't you get that one of the MAIN themes to this show is repeating the cycle of your parents?

TheWitch wrote:
And you can call me sweetie, hunny, cupcake, sugar and anything you want but you are still missing something HUGE. SHE'S A WITCH! She could have turned his penis into a slug, a chair, a brick etc with a wink before he got it any where near her. Please explain that. You are grasping at straws and trying, unsuccessfully, to go waaay too deep into things, darling sugar pie cherry sprinkles.


Oh I will babykins, because you clearly have no regard for the original fairytale what so ever. That is how it is WRITTEN, you can take it or leave it, I don't care, but that's how the story is designed. As for her powers, she clearly states in the Prologue that she WANTED him taking from her garden. She COULD have turned him into a stone, a dog a chair etc. But she LET him have her, she wanted him. Good lord.

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Last edited by Jman383 on Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:24 pm
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Folks, please, settle down. As most theatre is, at least so I believe, different things can be left up to interpretation. I have read both of the arguments and both are convincing. Jordan, I'd never thought of tying this context into the Lament. Pretty ingenious. However, I PERSONALLY would like to think of this 'raping' as 'stealing.' I think Sondheim is genious, and purposefully left that bit ambiguous. That way those who enjoy picking apart every single line could do so, while those like me could innocently sing that line around a mother or parent and say "oh no, she's not ACTUALLY raped. He's just stealing from her and 'raping' her garden dry."

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Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:49 pm
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Tony Winner
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Jman383 wrote:
But she LET him have her, she wanted him. Good lord.


Then it's not quite rape, is it? That's just called sex.


Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:23 am
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TheWitch wrote:
Jman383 wrote:
But she LET him have her, she wanted him. Good lord.


Then it's not quite rape, is it? That's just called sex.


Well, for one thing, the Witch might not have expected it to go that far, and thus it got out of hand.

The probable answer, however, is that him "raping" her is just how she tells the tale. After all, do you really expect she told her mother she WILLINGLY had sex with him, when that's the one thing she said NEVER to do? Her mother probably would have just skipped right to MURDER had she known her daughter provoked the incident. Actually, her mother HAD to have thought he raped her, I mean, why else make sure no man would every try such a thing again? The punishment is all too fitting.

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Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:45 am
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And also you say her garden is just a metaphor and nothing else. What about the second act when she comes in saying that the giant had destroyed it? Had the lady giant raped her as well? And during The Last Midnight when she throws away her beans? What about all that?


P.S. So you admit it wasn't rape then?


Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:12 am
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TheWitch wrote:
And also you say her garden is just a metaphor and nothing else. What about the second act when she comes in saying that the giant had destroyed it? Had the lady giant raped her as well? And during The Last Midnight when she throws away her beans? What about all that?


Oh boy, let's just reflect once more: the fairytale is older than the show, and guess what, the 2nd act is NOT in the fairytale. Thus, your argument is not conclusive. The acts are literally separate entities.

As for the Last Midnight, if you really want, we can play that game. The Witch claims she "lost the beans again", when really, she's throwing them away at her own will. What this means, of course, she's mocking her mother and the actual act means nothing. She didn't "lose the beans". They're right in front of her! She could pick them up herself if she wanted to! She's just gone mad in rage. In her insanity, she's saying "Kill me mother! I did it again! I disobeyed you! Come and smite me, I don't care, I just want to be away from these people!". It has nothing to do with the beans what so ever.

TheWitch wrote:
P.S. So you admit it wasn't rape then?


Sure, just like you admitted they had sex above. And btw, I never said it HAD to be rape, I just said that her claiming "rape" was quite literal.the Even if it didn't actually happen and it was mutually consented sex, the Witch was literal when she was referring to him penetrating her.

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Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:56 am
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Jman383 wrote:
TheWitch wrote:

TheWitch wrote:
P.S. So you admit it wasn't rape then?


Sure, just like you admitted they had sex above. And btw, I never said it HAD to be rape, I just said that her claiming "rape" was quite literal.the Even if it didn't actually happen and it was mutually consented sex, the Witch was literal when she was referring to him penetrating her.


I've admitted nothing. But just so you're clear she wasn't raped, my work hear is done. And yes. Yes you were pretty adamant that it had to be rape. But now what does it matter? We can all live in peace once more.


Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:09 pm
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TheWitch wrote:
Jman383 wrote:

TheWitch wrote:
P.S. So you admit it wasn't rape then?


Sure, just like you admitted they had sex above. And btw, I never said it HAD to be rape, I just said that her claiming "rape" was quite literal.the Even if it didn't actually happen and it was mutually consented sex, the Witch was literal when she was referring to him penetrating her.


I've admitted nothing. But just so you're clear she wasn't raped, my work hear is done. And yes. Yes you were pretty adamant that it had to be rape. But now what does it matter? We can all live in peace once more.


And I've admitted nothing. haha my point was I admitted just as much as you did. As for rape, my point is she's being literal when she says it. Whether it actually happened or was consented, we'll never know. Only those two will know, and you can't say otherwise.

But yes, we're clear they had sex in that garden. My job here is done.

P.S. You still haven't explained a few things for me. If the witch wasn't raped or at least had sex with the MM, why did she lock her OWN daughter in a fallace shaped tower and keep her away from men? Why was she transformed into a hideous hag and not something else? Why DIDNT she turn the MM into something when he broke into her garden? What made her change her mind? Why wasn't the Witch happy in her mother's house? Please, enlighten me on all of these things, as I've answered just about ALL of your points. You have a knack for dodging mine.

I'm not sure why you keep arguing me, you clearly don't know anything about fairytales and their sexual nature.

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Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:34 pm
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I'm still waiting....

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Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:00 pm
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OK-question I did not see the revival and this is the first time I have seen the lyric change for Last Midnight. Interesting-especially the end. So, did the show have more of a back story for THE WITCH?
As for the argument of you two: I have done the show twice and neither time was this possibility even mentioned. I actually was a little shocked to see it here. But JMan brought up some valid points that make sense...especially with the sexuality in fairy tales. However, the thing that I think hurts your point is Bernadette Peters's portrayal of the role. This is the commonly known and seen portrayal, and I think the way she interacts with the MM when they do is a little too lite for her to have been raped/sexually involved with him leading to such awful things happening. She even gives a funny little laugh after she boinks him (cant think of the word). So, Im not saying it isnt possible that indeed it couldnt be that he raped her, but I think if it is just based on her portrayal I dont think so. However, it is just one person's portrayal. I find your points very interesting though and will think more on this )


Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:29 pm
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Oh, I actually think that strengthens my argument. Theyre relationship in the OBC is almost like that of two exes. It's awkward, and has a layer of tension on it. And yes, she *does* "boink" him in his crotch, no? I wonder why...

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Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:34 pm
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Well, I will give you that! Def. have that ex flirty thing happening, if you look at it like that.


Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:29 pm
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