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Last Midnight - Meaning in context? 
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Young Hoofer
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:34 am
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I did wonder whether or not the baker's father was Jack's father as well and wether or not Jack knew, because Jack defends the Baker's father during "Your Fault". Anyone know why he does this??
"WITCH
It's you father's fault
That the curse got placed
And the place got cursed
In the first place!

LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD
Oh.
Then it's his fault!

WITCH
So.

CINDERELLA
It was his fault...

JACK
No."
http://www.lyricsondemand.com/soundtrac ... yrics.html


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Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:44 am
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Fresh Face
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Post Raping
Salome wrote:
he wasnt raping the witch in a literal sense. he was raping her garden dry.


I've thought about this a lot. I am convinced that women just do not use this word in any other context. Sure, men feel free to throw this word around when convenient, but I just don't think women do it. To a woman, rape means rape, end of story. I suspect that Lapine and Sondheim knew this, and knew that their choice of word would therefore insert this horrific ambiguity. If you choose to interpret it as a metaphorical term, then that is cool for you. It seems much more sinister to me. That ol' Mysterious Man is a real mess in my book.


Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:40 am
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Broadway Legend
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Post Re: Raping
ravenwork wrote:
Salome wrote:
he wasnt raping the witch in a literal sense. he was raping her garden dry.


I've thought about this a lot. I am convinced that women just do not use this word in any other context. Sure, men feel free to throw this word around when convenient, but I just don't think women do it. To a woman, rape means rape, end of story. I suspect that Lapine and Sondheim knew this, and knew that their choice of word would therefore insert this horrific ambiguity. If you choose to interpret it as a metaphorical term, then that is cool for you. It seems much more sinister to me. That ol' Mysterious Man is a real mess in my book.


Yes, but we have to remember this is the Witch we're talking about. She's not always the most straight-forward, is she? Something about her character is just so different from anyone else, that I really can see her using it metaphorically.


Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:39 pm
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Fresh Face
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what_the_heck013 wrote:
It really depends on interpretation. The recent Stratford Festival production had the witch wear her garden, giving a whole new idea to the "robbing me, raping me" line. It is very possible that the Mysterious Man is Jack's father as they don't know where he went or when he'll be back. These are the things you are supposed to just make up about your character. I applaud you for being creative.


It also gives a new meaning to the line "you should see my nectarines!"
:lol:


Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:50 pm
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Tony Winner
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^ Oookaaay....

I don't think it was in the literal sense, either. She seemed to only describe the MM stealing from her garden. I would think that it would've been mentioned in more than just one part, anyway.


Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:21 pm
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Tony Winner
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And, besides, has every one forgotten that she is, in fact, a witch? I don't think he could have physically raped her. He wouldn't have had the chance. The second she caught him in her garden she thought of casting a spell on him. But instead opted to trade his unborn child for his release. If there was any funny business going on at all, it would make more sense that the Witch would have been the one to instigate it.

And as for the costume used for the production at the Stratford Festival:

Image

Do remember that that is what she turned into "when her beans were stolen and the lightning flashed". That was not her state when the Baker's Father first entered her garden.


Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:55 pm
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Thanks for the photo. That's effing amazing.

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Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:46 pm
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Salome wrote:
he wasnt raping the witch in a literal sense. he was raping her garden dry.


Wrong. If you want further explanation I can go into it, but it's very literal when she says that. It's very easy to figure out.

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Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:08 pm
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TheWitch wrote:
If there was any funny business going on at all, it would make more sense that the Witch would have been the one to instigate it.


Who's to say that she didn't?

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Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:09 pm
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Tony Winner
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Post 
Jman383 wrote:
TheWitch wrote:
If there was any funny business going on at all, it would make more sense that the Witch would have been the one to instigate it.


Who's to say that she didn't?


Who is to say. That's left to your personal interpretation if you're really that desperate. However, it was not the other way around. And it was definitely not physical sexual rape committed by the Baker's father against the Witch . Punto final.


Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:03 am
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TheWitch wrote:
Jman383 wrote:
TheWitch wrote:
If there was any funny business going on at all, it would make more sense that the Witch would have been the one to instigate it.


Who's to say that she didn't?


Who is to say. That's left to your personal interpretation if you're really that desperate. However, it was not the other way around. And it was definitely not physical sexual rape committed by the Baker's father against the Witch . Punto final.


No, sweety. You're very wrong. There's very obvious clues in the music and the fairytale itself that it was in fact rape. Shall I explain?

First of all, if we're going to get technical with literary terms, I will first point out the meaning of the word "metaphor". Sondheim is genius at it, because he uses a few metaphors, and tricking you into thinking "rape" is one of them. It's not. It's very literal. You see, the Witch's garden is literally a metaphor for her body. That's why that picture above is BRILLIANT, because it's a literal translation of the metaphor. Her beans, on the other hand, are a metaphor for her virginity, which her mother warned her never to lose.

So, the MM stole the Witch's virginity, and her mother was PISSED at the Witch, b/c not only did she do the one thing she told her not to, but she probably thought the Witch did it willingly. So, what was her punishment? She turned her into a HIDEOUS creature. Why? So no man would EVER touch her again. Then, what was the Witch's punishment for the MM? She took his child, something he robbed of her. By raping her, he took away her ability ever to have children, and, on top of that, because of him her mother made it so no man would ever WANT to have kids with her. So, she took what she believed to be rightfully hers.

From there, she locks Rapunzel in a tower, repeating her mother's own cycle of preventing her from experiencing a man's touch (hense why the tower is ironically shaped like a fallace), only THIS TIME, the Witch wanted to make absolutely SURE Rapunzel would be safe, so she went as far as locking her away. So, please, explain why the Witch would want to keep Rapunzel in a FALLACE shaped tower away from men if she had not had a traumatizing experience herself?

Furthermore, if we must look into song/lyric examples to prove this point, look at "Witch's Lament" for a just example.

In "Witch's Lament" the Witch says,

"This is the world I meant.
Couldn't you listen?
Couldn't you stay content,
Safe behind walls,
As I could not?"

Pray tell, my dear, if the Witch was NOT raped, what was she referring to? When was she ever "not safe" behind her mother's walls?

Just sayin'....

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Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:32 am
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Tony Winner
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She couldn't stay content behind walls. Good Lord....


And you can call me sweetie, hunny, cupcake, sugar and anything you want but you are still missing something HUGE. SHE'S A WITCH! She could have turned his penis into a slug, a chair, a brick etc with a wink before he got it any where near her. Please explain that. You are grasping at straws and trying, unsuccessfully, to go waaay too deep into things, darling sugar pie cherry sprinkles.


Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:06 pm
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