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Rose...what is her main obstacle? 
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Tony Winner
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But the stage Rose didn't repent or apologize, either. She came to a realization. She admitted to her daughter that she did it because she wanted to be noticed. But she never said, "Oh I'm sorry for robbing you of your childhood".
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Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:32 am
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IndigoMedusa wrote:
But the stage Rose didn't repent or apologize, either. She came to a realization. She admitted to her daughter that she did it because she wanted to be noticed. But she never said, "Oh I'm sorry for robbing you of your childhood".
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No. She reverted right back to her old self. Rose is doomed at the end of this show. I have always felt that. There is no other course for her.


Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:45 am
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Tony Winner
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"She reverted right back to her old self"? What was there for her to revert from? Rose was always like that. Like I said, Rose is who she is. She will always dream of having love and attention and recognition. And why shouldn't she? She's only human, we alll want what we can't have.


And it's not like she doesn't change. She does change. She is doomed, yes, but by the end of the show she is infinitely more aware of herself than she was at the beginning. For the first time we see her being completely honest with herself. She realizes how deluded she was in hoping that pushing her kids into showbiz would make her get noticed. But of course this revelation isn't going to make her let go of her dreams.

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IndigoMedusa wrote:
"She reverted right back to her old self"? What was there for her to revert from?.


During her breakdown she has realizations of what she has done. It is the whole point of "Roses Turn". She has a moment of clarity which is why I love the song so much.

IndigoMedusa wrote:
Rose was always like that. Like I said, Rose is who she is. She will always dream of having love and attention and recognition. And why shouldn't she? She's only human, we alll want what we can't have..


Not all "humans" put their children through what she did. In fact, they could lose their children for it today.

IndigoMedusa wrote:
And it's not like she doesn't change. She does change. She is doomed, yes, but by the end of the show she is infinitely more aware of herself than she was at the beginning. For the first time we see her being completely honest with herself. She realizes how deluded she was in hoping that pushing her kids into showbiz would make her get noticed. But of course this revelation isn't going to make her let go of her dreams.


Rose only got worse. Read up on her. Very sad stuff


Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:38 pm
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And I hate how she had all these chances to have a "normal" life, and she never did.

Everything was about her and what SHE wanted.

Not what anyone else wanted.

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kozafluitmusique wrote:
And I hate how she had all these chances to have a "normal" life, and she never did.

Everything was about her and what SHE wanted.

Not what anyone else wanted.


She was chasing a dream. I do feel sorry for her. She was "born too soon and started too late". That still happens even today. She was very talented. More talented than the two girls, which is why Gypsy says "you really would've been something Mamma". She just put her dreams into her kids. It wasn't fair for any of them.


Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:25 pm
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Tony Winner
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Quote:
During her breakdown she has realizations of what she has done. It is the whole point of "Roses Turn". She has a moment of clarity which is why I love the song so much.


I think you're confusing a personal revelation with a change in desire. (they can be both, but not in this particular scene) The point of Rose's Turn isn't for her to let go of her dreams. The point is for her to have a realization. She realizes that she can't get away with pushing her kids anymore because it's doing no good for them and no good for herself. But that doesn't mean she's going to stop wanting love and recognition and having dreams of being a star. It's just that she's not deluded about these dreams in relationship to her actual life anymore.


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Not all "humans" put their children through what she did. In fact, they could lose their children for it today.



Loneliness does all sorts of things to people. I'm not saying that what she did was justifiable in any way, shape or form. What she did to her kids was emotionally destructive.
But Rose needs to be understood and cared for by the audience. It's like Sweeney Todd, in a way....yes, he does evil things and goes criminally insane. But the audience feels for him because of what he's been through. The circumstances pushed him into insanity.

The same can be said for Rose. She's never had love in her entire life. Her parents abandoned her and then her husband abandoned her, and then the man after that...
I don't know about you, but I know from personal experience that having a mom walk out can definitely blind one to reality. Had my mama never come back, I probably would've gone nuts.
Not only did Rose's mom walk out, her father walked out and so did her husband, and then the husband after that. No wonder she's so imbalanced. Just once is enough to send a person over the edge, let alone having it happen time and time again throughout one's life.

I'm not sure whether you really understand the severity of Rose's situation. Those kinds of experiences are scarring. Don't ever underestimate how much damage that kind of thing can do to a person. It can really kill you inside. A person who has not had stability as a kid can never fully have stability as an adult.


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And I hate how she had all these chances to have a "normal" life, and she never did.

Everything was about her and what SHE wanted.

Not what anyone else wanted.




ROSE: I'm used to people walking out. When my own mother did it, I cried for a week. Your father did it, and then the man after that did it...
(unaware, tears June's letter in half)


Do those words mean anything to you at all? Rose doesn't have the faintest idea of what normality is because her life has been complete chaos right from the beginning.
By the time that having a "normal" life became an option for her, she didn't even recognize that it was right in front of her. How could she? She's never known a real family. The idea of family time is completely unfathomable to her. She has no clue of what it means to lead a normal life.


She was so used to being unloved that when real love came to her in the form of Herbie, she couldn't see it for what it was.
It's perfectly understandable for her to have trouble emotionally opening herself up to him. After all, she's never known a guy that didn't let her down.




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She just put her dreams into her kids. It wasn't fair for any of them.



It's also unfair to write off Rose as a Mommie Dearest without taking into consideration the circumstances. Keep in mind that Rose wasn't even aware of what she was doing or how destructive she was. She honestly thought that she was a responsible parent who was trying to do what's best for her kids. Nobody ever taught her how to look after kids.

It is only until Rose's Turn that she realizes that her whole life has been a delusion.



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Rose only got worse. Read up on her.



The stage Rose =/= the real life Rose.

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Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:36 am
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I know all this....it's just appalling how when she did have a chance to settle down and all, she didn't.

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Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:25 am
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Tony Winner
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But like I said, her view of normality is extremely warped. She's never had it, why should she recognize it? I assume you're used to normality and you're having a hard time understanding why she doesn't give showbiz a rest. But her life has been such a mess for so many years that by the time chance of a normal life came around, she couldn't recognize it for what it was.

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Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:40 am
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IndigoMedusa wrote:
The point of Rose's Turn isn't for her to let go of her dreams. The point is for her to have a realization.


True

IndigoMedusa wrote:
She realizes that she can't get away with pushing her kids anymore because it's doing no good for them and no good for herself.


No. At no place in the song does she realize that what she did was no good for her children. As a matter of fact, when she does finally start to break " ma ma mamma", she goes on a tirade against her children. She is as selfish as she has ever been. Some have said that at this point in the song her realization is that she secretly hated her children because they represented the point in her life when she let her dream go and "settled".


IndigoMedusa wrote:
But that doesn't mean she's going to stop wanting love and recognition and having dreams of being a star. It's just that she's not deluded about these dreams in relationship to her actual life anymore.


No but she is still deluded. Within two minutes of the songs finale she starts telling Gypsy about another dream she had. At no point does she show she is no longer deluded. For her to admit that would mean she would have to change. We don't see a change in her.


IndigoMedusa wrote:
But Rose needs to be understood and cared for by the audience. It's like Sweeney Todd, in a way....yes, he does evil things and goes criminally insane. But the audience feels for him because of what he's been through. The circumstances pushed him into insanity.


You cannot compare the two. Sorry. Rose does NOT need to be cared for by the audience. I really hate when people say that. She needs to be seen for what she is. The reason people DO like her is because Rose Havock is probably one of the most CHARMING people who has ever been written for the stage.

IndigoMedusa wrote:
I don't know about you, but I know from personal experience that having a mom walk out can definitely blind one to reality. Had my mama never come back, I probably would've gone nuts.


Now you are identifying yourself with the kids. That is another discussion. As far as Rose is concerned that is still a weak excuse. Their are plenty of children who lose their mothers as children and go on to be perfectly sane adults.

IndigoMedusa wrote:
ROSE: I'm used to people walking out. When my own mother did it, I cried for a week. Your father did it, and then the man after that did it...
(unaware, tears June's letter in half)


Did it ever occur to you that her husbands left her because of what SHE was doing? I think it is pretty obvious that is what happened. One look at Herbie solidifies that. Her mother is another story. Although she is not mentioned much in the show, her mother was just like Rose.


IndigoMedusa wrote:
She was so used to being unloved that when real love came to her in the form of Herbie, she couldn't see it for what it was.
It's perfectly understandable for her to have trouble emotionally opening herself up to him. After all, she's never known a guy that didn't let her down.


I don't think that is why things did not work out with Herbie. Like I said above, I think it went bust because of her selfishness. Who could live with that?

IndigoMedusa wrote:
She honestly thought that she was a responsible parent who was trying to do what's best for her kids. Nobody ever taught her how to look after kids.


This could be said of any new mother.

IndigoMedusa wrote:
It is only until Rose's Turn that she realizes that her whole life has been a delusion.


Yes but the breakdown ONLY reveals to the audienced that she resents her kids.

IndigoMedusa wrote:
The stage Rose =/= the real life Rose.


Ummmm not so much. The stage Rose = Arthur Laurents/Sondheim
Rose did have a life after Gypsy became a stripper. Check it out. It's very interesting.


Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:42 am
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Tony Winner
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Wow....


I'm not even going to continue this....Salome was right. You don't really have a clue about anything. If all you picked up from Rose was that she was a creepy, pathetic Mommie Dearest I don't know what else to tell you. You just don't get it.

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IndigoMedusa wrote:
But like I said, her view of normality is extremely warped. She's never had it, why should she recognize it? I assume you're used to normality and you're having a hard time understanding why she doesn't give showbiz a rest. But her life has been such a mess for so many years that by the time chance of a normal life came around, she couldn't recognize it for what it was.


Wouldn't she yearn for it?

I'm just curious...that's all...

I have the book by Gypsy on my wishlist for Christmas.

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Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:52 pm
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