[The Duchess of Mint]

Dear "PotO" Fans,

Do you side with Christine, or do you side with the Phantom?

In other words, do you think that Christine is just an innocent girl who deserves to be protected by an ordinary guy (Raoul) from the deviant, sadistic Phantom, OR...do you think that Christine is a selfish, lustful, cruel, stereotypical tease who torments, tortures, and otherwise turns on the poor, socially misunderstood Phantom, choosing to hide behind the coat tails of an ordinary, stereotypical horndog named Raoul, just because she knew him since they were both knee-high to a grasshopper?

I think that you know that I side with the Phantom. If Christine was a modern girl, she would be a music student who willingly slept with her instructor (Did Christine really sleep with the Phantom? I can't remember...), and who then, after enjoying that time of seduction, suddenly saw her old friend, and said, "Oooh, I want you! Protect me from the socially disrespected...pervert! I cannot be known as a deviant by polite society!" I know that she was young, and that anyone can make a mistake, but there's no way that you can mistake lust for friendship, and there's no way that you can't find some way to wait for the guy whom you really want, all the while telling the older guy who wants you that you two are involved in a "Business Only" relationship! Anyone who just can't stay away from "The Bad Guy," even while they're telling him to leave them alone, really wants him, even if they only dedicate 1% of their desire to them.

Who do you side with? I'd like to know who A.L.W. sides with...

Thanks in advance for your participation in the poll, and for your replies.

[Phantom On A Budget]

Both are flawed. Christine is terribly naive, taken in by the thought of her father's Angel of Music. She then realizes who her Angel really is, and is rightfully unsure of the situation. I'd be scared out of my mind too if I woke up after effectively being kidnapped. Erik is a rather formidable figure. Disfigurement aside, he's extremely dangerous and unpredictable.

Not once did I ever get the impression that Christine was choosing Raoul simply because she saw him come along and was looking for the "newest model," as it were. Sure, he's the safe choice, but I've always felt as if their love was genuine. I don't feel that she saw Raoul and chose him simply to save her image or because she didn't like what she saw with Erik. I just don't see how that makes her a tease.

It's a bit scary to me when people side solely with Erik on this debate, because many that I've spoken to thus far seem to completely ignore his actions. Yes, he's tragically disfigured and has suffered from mankind's cruel treatment (for which I sympathize with him greatly), but he does some incredibly despicable things to get what he ultimately wants, which is Christine's love. He kidnaps her, kills at least two people (possibly more with the chandelier), nearly kills Raoul, and in the original novel threatens to blow the entire Opera up.

Not a character I'd enjoy spending the rest of my life with, when I really think about it. It's easy to get enveloped in Erik's mysterious, romanticized facade courtesy of ALW, but beneath that is something infinitely more terrifying, suffered though he has.

For the record, no Christine did not sleep with Erik, even though it's often debated in the movie because of the stocking nonsense. Also, if I had to put money on it, I'd say that ALW sides with Erik.

[The Duchess of Mint]

Dear "PotO" Fans,

I don't think that the Phantom was desperate from birth onward; he became desperate as a reaction to all of society's actions.

If society, more or less, told you "You cannot possibly enjoy love as we do, for you don't deserve love!", "You should not show your face...EVER!", "You shouldn't feel angry about our rejection of you!", etc., wouldn't you at least WANT to drop a chandeleir or two, even if you knew that you'd never really do something that drastic?

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[Phantom On A Budget]

[stagefrightdied]

I agree with Phantom on a budget, the phantom is screwed up, but from an extremely unlogical and purely emotional approach...

MARRY ERIK!

Raoul's great and all, but when compared to a mysterious, dangerous, unpredictable (and attractive!) stranger that appears in your room through a mirror, he's a little on the boring side. I think that if I were Christine I would have been tricked (but not to my disappointment) into marrying Erik.

[mastachen]

What part of the Phantom is attractive?

He lives in a freakin dungeon, has a hole in his head, kills people, bald, and broke.


If that's what girls look for in guys, I need a lifestyle change.

[stagefrightdied]

in most of the versions i've seen, the phantom is ripped!
and since his face is most of the time covered, it doesn't count, but yeah, that is gross...

but the way he handles christine is just plain intoxicating! Even when he's only touching her face, he does it in such a sultry, sexy way, it's impossible to resist! and the whole dangerous thing- everyone knows girl's go for the bad boys! it's dumb, but I'm guilty too..

Please don't burn a hole in your head, I think not-deformed faces are nice too!

[Phantom On A Budget]

That's the problem I have with the 2004 movie and to a lesser extent, the stage show (even though I love the stage show more than any other version). The movie in particular is overly sexed up. They cast a man who is honestly not appropriate for the role of the Phantom. If we're going by canon, not only is Erik's face deformed, he is extremely skeletal like as well. He is in no way "ripped," or physically attractive in any sense. Gerard Butler, on the other hand, was perfectly fine to look at with his toned body and mild facial sunburn. I can see why girls are swooning at his feet. I was in the beginning, but it didn't take me long to come to hate that movie and the poor choices made during its production.

The stage show, too, is very romanticized. The facial deformity is much more severe, but the character is extremely charismatic and impeccably dressed. While masked, he's pretty irresistible, especially when he's doing that "Christine in a trance" bit. I'm guilty of drooling at the stage show, sure, but in the end the character's monstrosity isn't in his face, it's in his actions. It's one thing to wonder, but to completely ignore the serious character flaws Erik possesses is just plain frightening to me.

[The Duchess of Mint]

Dear Phantom On A Budget,

So, to want revenge is as wrong as taking revenge? I don't think so...

So, you really think that, had the Phantom looked average, he would have been just as willing to commit crimes?

You say that the Phantom's personality, and not his face, causes Christine to be afraid of him, but I say that his personality is, in part, a result of society's reaction TO his face!

Therefore, Christine is freaking out about him without ever getting to know him. What if I were to tell you that prior to becoming a part of Christine's life again, Raoul has killed someone? I know that that hasn't really happened, but let's pretend, for a moment, that it has.

Christine hasn't seen Raoul in YEARS! She doesn't really know what he's like anymore. She assumes, via the "Childhood Friends" stereotype, that "The Boy Next Door" from her past MUST be safe. I know that she's been kidnapped by the Phantom, but she's running right into the arms of someone whom she only knew when she was young. Has she been with Raoul for all of these years? How does she know that he hasn't been paying strange, physically contageous women for a good time during every weekend of his life?

I'd say that she's simply choosing the lesser of two possible evils.

If you thought that Raoul had been visiting houses of ill repute, stealing, and/ or committing crimes while he was away from Christine, what would your opinion of the situation be?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

[Phantom On A Budget]

[Set_Buildin_Dad]

The phantom is a stalker, but he is a clever and talented one. Christine is a naive kid. She is dumped into a new environment after the death of her only parent (her father) at age 12 and is a vulnerable and hurt child. Remember, she is only 16 at the time of the story and she has been taking "voice lessons" from the angel of music for several years. That would mean that the phantom has been stalking her and using brainwashing techniques on her since she was 12 or so.

The phantom may be flawed and rejected because of society, but that is not a good reason to become a stalker and a murderer. If you look into the background of most real life (or theatre) bad guys you will find that there are societal influences that caused them to rebel. Does that justify their behavior? NO! Many other people that were subject to the same pressures did not resort to murder. While I love the character, the Phantom is definitely a bad guy.

[DaddyDiesel]

Not that I usually defend Murderers. But in this case i dont think it is a case of revenge on society. We have been treated kindly by society. We can easily depict right from wrong. But the phantom doesn't. From what he knows of the world is what he has experienced from life and possibly from the music and operas he has heard/seen throughout his whole sheltered life in the opera house.

If you read the book, and I believe there was a referance about this in the musical, he was basically tortured both physically and mentally at a very young age. When he grew up in the sub levels of the opera house. His only entertainment was what he provided and the operas from above. Lets face a lot of operas have senseless killing and bad morals as well. So when he does kill he really doesn't know that he is doing wrong. By the way he was treated by society and what he learned from popular entertainment, at the time period, killing was socially acceptable.

Now when he feels love for the first time, in christine, he really doesn't know how to act. I know when I first fell in love with someone or even had a crush I wanted to be around them all the time. IS it socailly exceptable to be. No that would be stocking. But the phantom doesnt know that. He does stalk her and loves her how he thinks is normal. He has watched to many love operas and probably thinks by simply loving someone they will love you in return.

Now to the debated part. I dont think that this guy was a monster for those reasons. He was a defect that was created by society. Is he wrong in killing? All the way untill the ending of the show I believe he wasn't. If he were to sttart killing again after christine had showed him what true compassion was. I would say yes. But thats all IMHO

[The Duchess of Mint]

Dear "PotO" Fans,

For Pete's sake! I never said that murder is right, or that it's good, or that it's cool! Please remember that!

Siding with the Phantom isn't much different from siding with Sweeney Todd, and many people seem to be doing THAT these days!

Oh, and I'm curious to know why Christine just HAD to be given opera lessons in secret, underground, by a deformed recluse, anyway! I can't remember why she chose the Phantom as a teacher. Was she too poor to afford lessons from a more socially "acceptable" teacher? I say that the girl was treading on thin ice in the first place; she put herself in a secluded position with a stranger, and THEN, after YEARS of vocal training, she tried to run away from him! Really, was THAT smart? I think that it's Christine's turn to say "I am NOT smarter than a fifth grader!"

Oh, and one more opinion. Please don't virtually gag, but I think that I will laugh if anyone tries to tell me that the title song from "PotO" isn't musical sex, and that Christine doesn't enjoy it!


Thanks in advance for your replies.

[Phantom On A Budget]

[mastachen]

[Madame Giry]

I've been a Phantom 'phan' for about 14 years now and this age-old debate has always raged in one way or another.

I admit that the romantic appaeal of the Phantom, as depicted in the Lloyd Webber stage musical and film musical, can be very attractive to your average sucker for 'tall, dark and handsome' men. One must realize however, that as superficial as many perceive Raoul to be, with his boyish good looks, wealth, and charm, the Phantom's image as this age-old alluring stereotype is equally superficial.

The admittedly tragic fact is that Erik, like all of us, had the potential to be a sane, normal person like any of us, but it was society that mistreated him and turned him into the homicidal, amoral figure that resides behind the mask, even behind the deformity. The point of the story seems to be that the external shell is something that is simply that, a shell, and that it is what exists inside that is of any significant consequence.

I find it ironic, even disturbing, then, that many 'I choose Erik' phans are blinded by the obvious implications of this attitude. If you ignore Erik's face, you still have to deal with Erik's actions and personality. His un-regretted actions of murder, stalking, extortion, theft, kidnapping, deception and generally manipulative maneuvers cannot be ignored nor excused, despite his obvious genius in a variety of academic and artistic fields. To dismiss all of this would be to use Erik's face and unfortunate plight as a justification for all the bloodshed and misfortune he has wreacked upon others.

Raoul is not a bad person, and he is described as a very caring, noble and devoted individual in the original story. His life may have been full of privilege and wealth, but that does not automatically make him inferior to Erik, who has had to suffer through the harshest trials. Some would suggest that he only cares for Christine because of her sudden success, but if he were really as shallow as that, why would he risk his life, even in the ALW version, to save her from a man who could have easily killed him? If he were the despicable figure that many phans make him out to be, he'd have left Christine to her fate and moved on to the next pretty little chorus girl or ballerina.

And then there's poor Christine. She is a naive, confused young woman who continues to grieve for her father and is subconsciously searching for a figure to replace him. She deludes herself into believing that the mysterious voice teacher she hears is an Angel, a post-mortem maifestation of her father's love for her. When she finds out that instead her trust has been abused by a violent, unpredictable madman, the inevitable result is that she goes with Raoul instead of Erik.

I think that the revelation that the Angel of Music was really Erik sobered her up to life a bit, made her grow up and shed her childish fantasies. She couldn't hate Erik, but that didn't mean she couldn't fear him either. I think she pitied Erik, and maybe loved him in a way that isn't so much the affection between lovers, but the attraction between souls that have both known suffering and lonliness. They are both damaged and even though they don't stay together, both are strengthened and changed by their time together.

It is also important to note that Erik himself admitted in the end that Christine could never have any kind of proper life with him, always hiding in darkness and at the mercy of his volotile nature. He wanted her to go with Raoul because he knew that the boy could give Christine a better life than he himself ever could and make her happy. This is what Erik wanted. He wanted to secure Christine's happiness more than he wanted his own happiness.

This might've been a bit rambling of me but I think one must look beyond a single adaptation of the Phantom's story before going with the 'obvious' choice - which is ironically, in this fandom, not Raoul.

~Madame~

[Lady'sMaid]

[Phantom On A Budget]

Brava, Madame Giry. Brava. I always wonder in threads like these just how many people actually consider the realities of the Phantom's character, and who are just enamored with the "idea" of the Phantom - that suave, mysterious, sexy shell that seems to draw so many in. If you stop there and only consider that, then sure it's fun to go with the "bad boy," but there's so much more beneath that facade which changes things entirely.

[The Duchess of Mint]

Dear "PotO" Fans,

So, some of you think that I'm turned on by 80s synthesizers?

Listen to the end of the title song from "PotO", and then, DON'T say what you're thinking of, because we all know that the entire song is sex personified!

I'd say that, judging by that song, if Christine likens the Phantom to her father, then she totally wants her father, on so many levels. I'm sorry, but I just have to say that that's the situation which seems to be true.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

[Madame Giry]

[Set_Buildin_Dad]

Excellent response Madame Giry.

To those who say that Christine was the manipulative one in this story I will say that I have known many 12 year old girls (the age at which Christine would have first been influenced by the Phantom). I have one daughter who is 12 right now. For the most part these girls are trusting and gullible.

Christine was an orphan in the story. She is living at the opera house after the death of her father, and performing in the ballet. Where would she get money to pay for voice lessons (as has been suggested by another poster)? To quote from the show: "In sleep he sang to me, in dreams he came". The Phantom used psychological warfare to seduce this poor young girl to his aims. Not only is he a stalker, but he is an intelligent and devious one to boot. That is the most dangerous kind!

The story revolves around the time when Christine becomes mature enough to understand what has been happening to her. At that point she rebels against the stalker's influence in her life. She is conflicted because the stalker has been a father figure to her after the death of her own father. He has also given her the gift of song for which she is grateful. In the end Christine pulls away from his influence but, per the ending of the movie, he never stops following her.

[lottielou22]

DaddyDiesl totally has a point, and I think that that is part of the Phantom that we love (along with the tall, dark mysteriousness of him.) that naivety that he isn't really experienced in how you do things in the real world. I guess he's kind of like a teenage boy trying to get a girlfriend, in a weird roundabout way that involves getting her attention in the form of murder.
Anyway, I have always wanted to play Christine (well, actually just since I saw the movie) and I was thinking, "you know, I really wouldn't want to choose Raoul over the Phantom." so I might have an episode of insanity and declare my love for the Phantom on stage and leave Raoul to ride the boat back to civilization alone. (well, not really, but it would be hard to be "motivated" the same way Christine is.)
So, I was thinking: No matter how hot the guy is, if he had access to your room through a secret door (through which it is obvious that he has been able to spy on you), and he was twice your age and a murderer, AND he was killing people because of you and you were afraid he was going to kill the next nearest and dearest to you (Raoul), would you be scared? Would YOU not particularly want to marry him?? I totally see where Christine's coming from. But... I still kinda have a thing for the Phantom.

[LaGataNegra]