Archive for Musicals.Net Musicals.Net |
| Apples2for10 |
Truly evil characters?Of all the main characters, I can't think of any who were truly evil. To me, they all seemed to have likable traits. Comments? |
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| Ghost |
Well, are real human beings ever "truly evil"? | ||||||
| Dvarg |
Very good point. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Mrs. Lovett is truly evil. Make no mistake about that. | ||||||
| Dvarg |
I wouldn't say she's evil, she's just totally pragmatic. I would rather call her amoral than evil. If Lovett truly were evil, she would actually enjoy killing people for it's own sake. I don't think she does, exactly. She just have no concept of caring about their faith at all as long as it serves her own purpose. If something else that didn't hurt other people could serve her purpose better, I think she'd rather have done that. |
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| Salome |
Judge Turpin is also evil. not totally but he thinks nothing of using the law toget what he wants. his Mea Culpa shows us his remorse. which is why its essential that the song be kept in every production. | ||||||
| Apples2for10 |
I don't agree with that. It's very obvious that she cares about Sweeney and Toby. |
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| Dvarg |
I was referring to the ones she bakes into pies. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Lovett is EVIL personified!! She could care less about Toby. Did you ever see the show? She is ready to bake Toby into a pie by the end of act II. She is the only character to show no remorse for their actions. She doesn't even really love Sweeney, she loves competition. Look at her attitude concerning Mrs. Moody. Evil evil evil!! |
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| Dvarg |
Mooney? |
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| EponineBarker |
He's just perverted. (I like the song though.) |
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| Salome |
he is pewrverted..but the fact that he is trying to astone with prayer and punishment shows some remorse...whats creepy is the fact that his self flaggelation leads to orgasm. | ||||||
| Dvarg |
I think Lovett is more complicated than that. I think she loves Sweeney, and I think she cares at least a little about Toby. It's when he starts to figure out what is going on and therefore becoming a threat to her she consider harming him. If not, why wouldn't she turn him into a meat pie to begin with? Sweeney wouldn't have minded, he isn't very important in the pie shop and noone would have missed him. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
You are only proving my point. She loves someone till they become a threat. If they do become a threat she will have their throat slit and baked into a pie. She does NOT love Sweeney. She is obsessed with him. There is a huge difference. If she loved him she would have told him that the love of his life was indeed alive. She makes the most evil choices in the whole show. It is HER idea ALONE to bake the pies. She takes pleasure in the fall of Mrs. Moody. She quite easily tosses her "love" for Toby aside and tries to kill him. Sondheim himself has said that Mrs Lovett is evil personified. She is the worst kind of human being. |
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| Sweeney Hyde |
I feel like agreeing with you today. 
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| The REAL Ciaron |
This is good news for you Sweeney. You see if you disagree with me about anything pertaining to "Sweeney Todd" or any other Sondheim show you would most likely always be wrong. Oh yeah......I'm just that good =) **Disclaimer for response to Sweeney's post. I AM NOT MAKING FUN OF MENTALLY CHALLENGED CHILDREN!!!!!**** - Thank you |
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| Sweeney Hyde |
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| Dvarg |
This didn't seem to be your point to begin with. I agree she's the worst kind of person, but I wouldn't reduce that to merely being "evil", because it is such a shallow label. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
How is it a shallow label? Are you saying that someone cannot be evil? What is your definition of evil? Look this woman has not ONE redeeming quality. I want you to read this amazing article written by Anthony DiSanto for Sondheim.com Please let me know what you think of it. I found it fascinating and directly pertains to this argument. http://sondheim.com/commentary/sweeney.html |
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| Dvarg |
I already explained my defintion of evil - I think it's to do evil things for the sake of it. Mrs Lovett clearly does not do bad things for the sake of it - she just doesn't care that her actions harm other people. That extreme sort of pragmatism may be even worse than being evil, but still is something different in my opinion. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Did you read the article? |
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| Kaiana |
I read the article. And first of all, it's Mooney, not Moody.
My definition of evil is knowing something is wrong, doing it anyway and not feeling bad about it. As the article says, "This is a distinct contrast to Mrs. Lovett, who is not even aware that what she is doing is wrong;" Mrs. Lovett is just entirely pragmatic but like the article says she is always saying how kind she is and stuff like that. She believes that she is not doing anything wrong. And you were saying earlier how she didn't really love anyone, that just made me think of when she sings "I love you, I'd be twice the wife she was, I love you". I think it's interesting that her she comments on being a good wife and doesn't mention all the money they've made together or anything. I think love just generally takes a back seat to her ambition. But then you can get into a whole thing about what love is and if she truly loves him if she cares more about getting ahead in life. But anyway, I don't think Mrs. Lovett is truly evil. Actually, I'd say the Judge is closer to being evil b/c he knows what he's doing is wrong and he does it anyway. And yet, I can't help feeling sorry for him because he's not strong enough to resist his evil desires. Mrs. Lovett is certainly more frightening since she doesn't find what she is doing to be evil. But I don't think there are any truly evil characters in this show. |
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| Dvarg |
No, I was just going to bed and posted just before I shut the PC down. I will now. Edit: I've read it, and though I object to this definition of evil, I definately agree wih everything else. To be evil, imo, one must do evil without any other motivation than liking to do evil things. Lovett definately does not want to do evil things for their own sake, as this article confirms. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Bit vague don't you think? |
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| Dvarg |
Too specific if anything. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
OK what are her redeeming qualities? She is the only one of the leads who does not show any kind of remorse. Can evil not be defined as an act or a series of acts without any sort of remorse or longing for redemption? |
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| Dvarg |
I don't think she has any redeeming qualities (except being visciously funny). If you define evil as absence of remorse, it's ok with me. To me evil is the combination of enjoying doing evil things for their own sake and a conscience what you're doing is evil. I think Lovett does not find pleasure in evil things for their own sake - she only does them because because she can benefit materially from the evil deeds. If other harmless actions would serve her purposes better, she'd prefer those. I'm not sure she knows her actions are bad or that she doesn't care. Personally, I just don't think she's capable of understanding what she's doing harms other people. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
See this is where you scare me haha. If someone does something horrible because of ambition or material worship how is that not considered evil. Some of the most evil acts in human history have been committed in the name of some sort of ambition. The fact remains that there were ways she could have gotten what she wanted or at least there was a chance. Who knows?
Oh come on now dvarg!! She is the smartest character in the show. There is no doubt about that. |
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| Dvarg |
I think it's useful operating with a difference between evil deeds and evil as in a person's personality. My point is that if there's some sort of ambition, I consider it to be something more than "just evil". But this is obviously a question of definitions, and we have different defintions of evil.
When did compassion, concern about others and empathy have anything to do with being smart? Of course she's smart, but in my opinion there's a serious flaw in Lovett's psychology that prevents her from being empathic (I see it as a parallell to flaws in the materialistic/economic system that have produced lovetts and sweeneys). |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Yeah.....she's evil. |
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| Dvarg |
In my opinion, lacking empathy is a part of, but not identical with being evil. For example, a lot of people we don't know of may lack empathy, but if they don't do anything that harms other people (or similar "evil" acts) we wouldn't consider them evil. I don't think there's adirect line from lack of empathy to actively do evil things. I think beig active is an important of being evil. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
I dont think you have to harm anyone to be evil. |
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| Dvarg |
I disagree because I don't see a purpose of an "evil" label if there neither exists an intention nor any effect. But that's nt so important. What is your definition of evil? |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
I'll agree with the dictionary here.... harm; mischief; misfortune to wish one evil morally wrong or bad |
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| Dvarg |
In my opinion, that definition is too vague and unspecific to be of much use in a discussion like this. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
I don't know why tou are beating a dead horse here. Sondheim himself has said she is truly evil. I would rather deal with anyone else in the show but her. |
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| Dvarg |
Because I find it interresting to analyse the nature of evil, regardless of what Sondheim may think it is. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Good luck with that. |
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| Dvarg |
Why did you participate in this discussion? |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Ummmm because I felt like it? |
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| Dvarg |
Sorry for being under the impression it was because you had something to contribute with, then. Ouch, C, you make me act so bitchy 
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| The REAL Ciaron |
I did contribute and I was right. You're just being annoying. The composer and the writer of the book have both been quoted as saying the character of Nellie is evil yet you insist you know better. I don't argue with people like that or try not to. Perhaps I was just bored with it. Who knows. |
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| Apples2for10 |
If anything, it's my fault for even starting this thread. I never would've guessed that this would become a huge "back and forth" arguement. So, if you have to blame someone, blame me. | ||||||
| Dvarg |
No, I don't "know" better. I am interrested in what defines an evil person. Sondheim claiming that Lovett is evil doesn't say anything about what evil is. |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Let's assume Sondheim knows better than us. Sound like a good idea? |
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| Dvarg |
About the characyerization of Lovett or about the nature of evil? |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Re: Truly evil characters?
The thread was started with a rather simple statement. Let's stick to the show deeeeevarg. If you want to go into the nature of all evil in the world...well.......even I don't have that kinda time. |
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| Dvarg |
Re: Truly evil characters?
Ok. I'm sure Sondheim and I have different definitions of "evil". He considers Lovett simply evil, I think the character is more fasetted than that. Satisfied? |
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| The REAL Ciaron |
Re: Truly evil characters?
The question that people have been asking since 1979 is who is the villain of this piece. The reason people had such a hard time deciding that was because of Cariou's incredibly charismatic performance and Lansbury's cooky and manic Lovett. Maybe you/we should change the word evil to villainous. |
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| Dvarg |
Re: Truly evil characters?
Probably. It's two different things in my opinion. I think Mrs Lovett is at least the main villain, like the system she at least partly represents. |
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| actionjaxson91 |
Re: Truly evil characters?
Mrs. Lovett is probably the one with the most evil traits. Sweeney's murders are backed up by his revenge and mistreated past. |
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| Radames's_Angel |
Mrs Lovett is the main villan, but I tend to agree with Dvarg, I don't think she's really truly evil... |