Jman383
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Symbolism of the BeansSo, having been in the show recently, I was taking a lot of time to thinking about the symbolism to the plot and its characters. There's obviously a lot revolving around sexual awakening and what not (aka with Little Red & Jack), but one thing I was taking a gander at was in fact the Witch and her Beans.
Now, mind you, I COULD be reading into things way too much, or this could be information already obvious to everyone already, I dunno, I'm just throwing it out there as a revelation I had.
But, when looking at the Witch's garden it's safe to say the whole thing as an entity was her youth. More specifically, the beans were her virginity. Now, her mother of course told her never to lose the beans (her virginity), because like many controlling mothers, she didn't want her growing up. Now, this is where it gets a little fuzzy, but bare with me.
Now, like Rapunzel, the Witch was probably stasnding idly by, but instead of just sitting in a tower, she was most likely tending to her garden, safe, happy, virgininal (and powerless of course) when the Mysterious Man crept over and began tearing through her veggies. She claims he was "raping her", which we all assume to be a metaphor to ripping through her plants, but was it? I mean, in my opinion, the Witch would have had to have been sexually assaulted by him for her mother to have reacted in the way that she did, aka transforming her into a hideous creature.
By doing this to the Witch, her mother probably assumed that no man would ever touch her sexually again, and, unfortunately, she was right. It's my theory that because of this, the now bitter Witch practiced the same thing with Rapunzel, but instead of deforming her, she locked her in the fallic like tower where she couldn't be reached, and therefore, escaping her from any man that passed through (until her prince that is).
Now, basically what I'm proposing here is that the Witch was in fact raped by the MM, but of course, this is just portrayed by the simple line of him taking her "beans", or I guess in the same way of saying that Little Red was "eaten" by the "Big Bad Wolf". I dunno, what do you guys think? Am I reading way too much into this?
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Not Dead Yet
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Re: Symbolism of the BeansWe all know the original versions of fairy tales tend to be much more horrifying than the more modern, childish versions. However, they were outwardly horrifying, not so subtle.
On the one end, ITW isn't strictly about the real versions of fairy tales. It's a possibility that the Witch was raped, and the underlying message exists in the text.
However, I think we've found a lot of "underlying messages" in ITW already that in all actuality might be a lot of speculation on our parts.
I wouldn't completely throw this theory away-- I actually find it very interesting, and it does connect. But I'm not going to assume this as a canon fact of the show-- but merely an interpretation of the story-- which, again, I think is a good one.
And points for putting this all together, I never thought of it this way!
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Baker
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Re: Symbolism of the Beans | Not Dead Yet wrote: | | I wouldn't completely throw this theory away-- I actually find it very interesting, and it does connect. But I'm not going to assume this as a canon fact of the show-- but merely an interpretation of the story-- which, again, I think is a good one. |
This sums up my thoughts.
One thing I was going to say in the Generational Theory thread but didn't because my post was already rather long, was that I think a lot of the stuff we're delving into can't really be credited to Sondheim and Lapine, because these are things that are present in the original fairy tales, so they naturally come through in Into the Woods too.
As far as this... like I said in the other thread, I've always thought of the Witch's mother as stand-offish and to add on, I never really thought that the Witch's mother specifically cursed the Witch to be ugly. I mean, hadn't the Witch's mother left long before the Mysterious Man stole the beans? I just figured that the curse on the Witch was a natural part of the beans' magic.
Your theory is still some interesting symbolism though, definitely makes me rethink my thoughts of the stand-off Witch's mother... are there any lines in the show that support that the Witch was overbearing?
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Joshua
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Re: Symbolism of the Beans | Baker wrote: | | As far as this... like I said in the other thread, I've always thought of the Witch's mother as stand-offish and to add on, I never really thought that the Witch's mother specifically cursed the Witch to be ugly. I mean, hadn't the Witch's mother left long before the Mysterious Man stole the beans? I just figured that the curse on the Witch was a natural part of the beans' magic. |
"Alright, Mother, when? Lost the beans again! Punish me the way you did then -- Give me claws and a hunch. Just away from this bunch and the gloom and the doom and the boom crunch."
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ConverseSneaker
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This is pretty interesting thought. Props to you!
I don't think the MM really raped her though, maybe mentally. Like breaking her innocent view of humans being simple and nice, so she felt like she had been raped, lost her innocence.
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Baker
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Re: Symbolism of the Beans | Joshua wrote: | | Baker wrote: | | As far as this... like I said in the other thread, I've always thought of the Witch's mother as stand-offish and to add on, I never really thought that the Witch's mother specifically cursed the Witch to be ugly. I mean, hadn't the Witch's mother left long before the Mysterious Man stole the beans? I just figured that the curse on the Witch was a natural part of the beans' magic. |
"Alright, Mother, when? Lost the beans again! Punish me the way you did then -- Give me claws and a hunch. Just away from this bunch and the gloom and the doom and the boom crunch." |
Yeah, but even considering that quote, I still just never thought of it as her mother punishing her so much as the beans and their magic punishing her... they were her mother's beans, so it's possible her mother cast the spell on the beans, so indirectly her mother would be cursing her. I don't know, I guess it makes more sense for the Witch's mother to have cursed her directly.
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SomeoneLikeYou
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I love how seemingly straightforward stories (SSS) have all these deep, explorable layers.  It's so interesting, like the fairy tale version of the Da Vinci Code. lol
Interesting theory, btw. I've heard some crazy ones, but that's actually pretty intellectual.
Question...I understand that the Little Red and Wolf thing was meant to be somewhat sexual, but how so for Jack?
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Jman383
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Thanks guys! I know the theory IS asking for a little much, but the conversation is definitely appreciated
As for the Witch's mother, I honestly think, just based on my theory of how the show's character are so repetetive as to the role's their own parent's played (actually, a line in "Last Midnight" even says that every one is as their father etc), I think it's safe to assume the Witch had a very similar relationship with her mother as she later developed with Rapunzel. At least, that's what I think anyways.
Now, pertaining to Jack's sexual awakening, when we totally disected the classic fairy tales in my college english course this year (which was SO cool because I was still a sr. in high school at the time), the bean stalk is a VERY fallic symbol to Jack's own "growth", if you get my drift. As far as what I remember, the beanstalk growing is a representation of Jack's sexual awakening and the start to his journey through puberty. His song, therefore, "Giants in the Sky", even furthers this. The song discusses Jack's new outlook on the world, and how he sees everything so differently, and things (mainly women I'd assume), he'd never be interested in before, he now is. At least, that's what I take from it. I hope that helps a little. Anyone else have a comment on this, or my original theory?
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Tumnus1031
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It's actually spelled "phallic." But that's just my grammar Nazi side shining through, ignore me.
Jack in the Beanstalk does deal with sexual awakening, mostly. The beanstalk represents his er...wang. And the climbing of it symbolizes the main afternoon pastime of every pubescent boy. 
I think the song "Giants in the Sky," dealing with the lyrics, is a song about how Jack has discovered things such as women ("And she draws you close to her giant breast/And you know things now that you never knew before") but more of his reluctance to deal with those sorts of things. Even though Jack has grown up by the time his song comes around, it seems to me that he's not very enthusiastic about it. You can see it in the very last scene of the play where he's lost without his mother. Even though he does say "Mother, I'm a man now" at the beginning of Act II I think it's more of a protest than an actual statement of his maturity.
Just my two cents, of course.
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ConverseSneaker
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| Jman383 wrote: |
As for the Witch's mother, I honestly think, just based on my theory of how the show's character are so repetetive as to the role's their own parent's played (actually, a line in "Last Midnight" even says that every one is as their father etc), I think it's safe to assume the Witch had a very similar relationship with her mother as she later developed with Rapunzel. At least, that's what I think anyways.
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Thank you for inspiring a sugar-high fueled fanfic I wrote last night around midnight. 
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Jman383
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| ConverseSneaker wrote: | | Jman383 wrote: |
As for the Witch's mother, I honestly think, just based on my theory of how the show's character are so repetetive as to the role's their own parent's played (actually, a line in "Last Midnight" even says that every one is as their father etc), I think it's safe to assume the Witch had a very similar relationship with her mother as she later developed with Rapunzel. At least, that's what I think anyways.
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Thank you for inspiring a sugar-high fueled fanfic I wrote last night around midnight. |
Hahahaha no problem Is it any good? I've always thought the Witch deserved a Prequel all to herself haha.
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Joshua
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| Tumnus1031 wrote: | | Just my two cents, of course. |
PHAIL.
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Alexia Dark
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L-oh-freaking-L at ConverseSneaker and Jman383.
I just finished writing a 3-part 'prequel' which starts from the Witch's early childhood, then runs alongside the events of ITW.
I want to post it somewhere besides facebook, but I hate the way fanfiction.net looks on my screen (and also because you can't copy and paste anything in it.)
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Trevor reincarnate
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Another interesting question: Who is the Witch's mother?
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Jman383
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| Trevor reincarnate wrote: | | Another interesting question: Who is the Witch's mother? |
Karen Walker of course!!
No, in all seriousness, I dunno. It'd be interesting to see if there's any other fairy tales written about the witch.
As for that fanfic Alexia, I'd love to see! Post right on here... who cares?
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Mungojerrie_rt
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Interesting theories with the beans. The beans are there to replace the raddishes in the original Rapunzel story so that it ties in with Jack. So I guess any deeper meaning comes from the original story with raddishes.
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Baker
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Mungojerrie - I think you're thinking of the lettuce/rampion/"rapunzel" that the husband steals for the wife? It's in there. Listen to the Witch's rap, and the Mysterious Man's lines before No More. He stole the "greens" for his wife, then also stole some beans for himself. They don't replace, they're just an addition to.
Oo, oo, idea! We know the Witch's mother is gone, but not that she's dead, right? What if she's Hansel and Gretel's witch? So Witch's Mother gives birth to Witch, who adopts Rapunzel, who gives birth to Hansel and Gretel, who are tormented by their own great-grandmother. That'd be an interesting turn of events.
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ConverseSneaker
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| Jman383 wrote: | | ConverseSneaker wrote: | | Jman383 wrote: |
As for the Witch's mother, I honestly think, just based on my theory of how the show's character are so repetetive as to the role's their own parent's played (actually, a line in "Last Midnight" even says that every one is as their father etc), I think it's safe to assume the Witch had a very similar relationship with her mother as she later developed with Rapunzel. At least, that's what I think anyways.
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Thank you for inspiring a sugar-high fueled fanfic I wrote last night around midnight. |
Hahahaha no problem Is it any good? I've always thought the Witch deserved a Prequel all to herself haha. |
I kept it very vague, but I like it. It's on fanfiction.net, feel free to check it out
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Tumnus1031
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| Joshua wrote: | | Tumnus1031 wrote: | | Just my two cents, of course. |
PHAIL. |
I like closure to my posts...
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Jman383
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| Baker wrote: |
Oo, oo, idea! We know the Witch's mother is gone, but not that she's dead, right? What if she's Hansel and Gretel's witch? So Witch's Mother gives birth to Witch, who adopts Rapunzel, who gives birth to Hansel and Gretel, who are tormented by their own great-grandmother. That'd be an interesting turn of events. |
This is kinda sorta the most brilliant idea ever, as in the story of Hansel & Gretel, their mother is dead, and the father has a new wife, who wants the children gone. I NEVER thought of that!!
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what_the_heck013
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I didn't bother to read all the posts so I'm not sure if someone has said this already and/or if it is totally random BUT in a Canadian production of ITW, the witch wore her garden, i.e. it was part of her costume. This gave extra meaning to the line "you should see my nectarines" (considering where they were placed). So your interpretation is very valid. And logical.
i wish i could find a picture.
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Tumnus1031
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| what_the_heck013 wrote: | | This gave extra meaning to the line "you should see my nectarines" (considering where they were placed). |
ROFL
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ConverseSneaker
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| what_the_heck013 wrote: | "you should see my nectarines" (considering where they were placed). So your interpretation is very valid. And logical.
i wish i could find a picture. |
In the movie, there's one shot of Bernadette during that line and she's miming holding a nectarine, trust me, once one guy noticed, the whole cast starts cracking up whenever someone says it.
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Alexia Dark
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| what_the_heck013 wrote: | I didn't bother to read all the posts so I'm not sure if someone has said this already and/or if it is totally random BUT in a Canadian production of ITW, the witch wore her garden, i.e. it was part of her costume. This gave extra meaning to the line "you should see my nectarines" (considering where they were placed). So your interpretation is very valid. And logical.
i wish i could find a picture. |
Haha, Stratford. Yeah. There are a few pics online, if you google.
The production of it I just did had me in a garden dress as well (not as fancy, of course... in fact, with all the plastic vegetables on it, it must've weighed ten pounds and was a pain in the butt to walk in backstage, where I'd bump into walls/people/set pieces with the heads of lettuce)
And yeah, once I said the nectarine line as a joke, our Baker's Wife couldn't stop almost cracking up for like a week of rehearsals. (And the worst part is... the dress also featured a banana).
Well, that's another story, nevermind...
Speaking of stories, it appears that fanfiction.net has a policy that includes not using direct quotes or lyrics from a show, and that sort of squashes the idea of me uploading my fanfic, which has 3 parts, the latter two being mostly the libretto of the show, but with the Witch's perspective in mind, as well as what happens whenever she runs off-stage chasing someone/other things happen.
But I'm getting kind of off-topic, so I'll repost this bit of info in the fanfic thread.
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SomeoneLikeYou
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| Tumnus1031 wrote: | Jack in the Beanstalk does deal with sexual awakening, mostly. The beanstalk represents his er...wang. And the climbing of it symbolizes the main afternoon pastime of every pubescent boy.
Just my two cents, of course. |
 Good grief...
| Jman383 wrote: | | Baker wrote: |
Oo, oo, idea! We know the Witch's mother is gone, but not that she's dead, right? What if she's Hansel and Gretel's witch? So Witch's Mother gives birth to Witch, who adopts Rapunzel, who gives birth to Hansel and Gretel, who are tormented by their own great-grandmother. That'd be an interesting turn of events. |
This is kinda sorta the most brilliant idea ever, as in the story of Hansel & Gretel, their mother is dead, and the father has a new wife, who wants the children gone. I NEVER thought of that!! |
I concur. That's genius, Baker! You get a cookie. 
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AudreyTD
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Re: Symbolism of the Beans | Jman383 wrote: |
Now, like Rapunzel, the Witch was probably stasnding idly by, but instead of just sitting in a tower, she was most likely tending to her garden, safe, happy, virgininal (and powerless of course) when the Mysterious Man crept over and began tearing through her veggies. She claims he was "raping her", which we all assume to be a metaphor to ripping through her plants, but was it? I mean, in my opinion, the Witch would have had to have been sexually assaulted by him for her mother to have reacted in the way that she did, aka transforming her into a hideous creature.
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Being about to play the Witch myself, I love this idea and will certainly consider it for subtext. (From most symbolic/phallic readings, Cinderella's shoe is also a symbol for virginity...much like the spindle on Aurora's spinning wheel - so it certainly adds another dimension.
One thing I'm still toying with - and as you have been in the show, you may have your own idea, is the line in "Last midnight" "...broke a little vow...did you?". It would seem that the only people who have broken vows are the Baker's Wife and Cinderella's Prince - yet the line is most commonly directed to LRR. I can't see that a promise not to stray from the path is enough to suggest a "vow" - BUT with the witch's mother issues, perhaps she would think that any disobedience is enough - and after all, she has to shame all of them in the song (following which LRR does reply "perhaps I shoudn't have strayed from the path...") Any thoughts welcomed.
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Jman383
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Re: Symbolism of the Beans | AudreyTD wrote: | | Jman383 wrote: |
Now, like Rapunzel, the Witch was probably stasnding idly by, but instead of just sitting in a tower, she was most likely tending to her garden, safe, happy, virgininal (and powerless of course) when the Mysterious Man crept over and began tearing through her veggies. She claims he was "raping her", which we all assume to be a metaphor to ripping through her plants, but was it? I mean, in my opinion, the Witch would have had to have been sexually assaulted by him for her mother to have reacted in the way that she did, aka transforming her into a hideous creature.
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Being about to play the Witch myself, I love this idea and will certainly consider it for subtext. (From most symbolic/phallic readings, Cinderella's shoe is also a symbol for virginity...much like the spindle on Aurora's spinning wheel - so it certainly adds another dimension.
One thing I'm still toying with - and as you have been in the show, you may have your own idea, is the line in "Last midnight" "...broke a little vow...did you?". It would seem that the only people who have broken vows are the Baker's Wife and Cinderella's Prince - yet the line is most commonly directed to LRR. I can't see that a promise not to stray from the path is enough to suggest a "vow" - BUT with the witch's mother issues, perhaps she would think that any disobedience is enough - and after all, she has to shame all of them in the song (following which LRR does reply "perhaps I shoudn't have strayed from the path...") Any thoughts welcomed. |
Actually, just to be nitpicky, I want to say that the spindle in Sleeping Beauty is actually a phallic symbol, rather than that of virginity. After all, the spindle "penetrating" her finger and what not.... but that's not even important.
ANYWAYS, LOVE the idea there about the Last Midnight. I had never thought of the "vow" business for LR. I always figured it was meant for talking about the others, even though they weren't there. Almost as if she was justifying the BW's death to the B (then again, I dunno if the Witch would even know the BW cheated). But I like your idea better in regardless. And the "vow" itself, dealing would the path, could be a vow of "chastity" that LR swore to her mother, symbolically of course, about "not straying from the path" aka, not having sex until she was married. Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Tumnus1031
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| Quote: | And the "vow" itself, dealing would the path, could be a vow of "chastity" that LR swore to her mother, symbolically of course, about "not straying from the path" aka, not having sex until she was married. Just my thoughts on the matter.
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I agree...that fits in with the whole Wolf/pedophile thing and the fact that devouring=rape.
After I explained the symbolism in LRRH to my friend who's obsessed with ItW like me, she said she could never listen to "I Know Things Now" without being grossed out with thoughts like that. 
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AudreyTD
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Re: Symbolism of the Beans[quote="Jman383"][quote="AudreyTD"] | Jman383 wrote: |
And the "vow" itself, dealing would the path, could be a vow of "chastity" that LR swore to her mother, symbolically of course, about "not straying from the path" aka, not having sex until she was married. Just my thoughts on the matter. |
Thanks for this - I do like the idea of returning to the "sex" symbolism with LR - the Wolf is quite the paedophile. Going back to extending your original thoughts about the beans - I wonder if it is signficant that when the Witch regains her beauty she is powerless (thus vulnerable? ie - to be taken advantage of by the men).
I was also considering the fact that the Mysterious man would have originally have seen the young pretty witch, and met her again as the hag when she claims Rapunzel and whether when they cross paths later there _is_ some sort of chemistry between them (even if he didn't rape her - she perhaps fancied him, and thus her mother cursed her to protect her).
It's such a wonderful show for sub text, and your idea has really given me a lot of food for thought.
All the best with your studies too.
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ConverseSneaker
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Re: Symbolism of the Beans | AudreyTD wrote: | Going back to extending your original thoughts about the beans - I wonder if it is signficant that when the Witch regains her beauty she is powerless (thus vulnerable? ie - to be taken advantage of by the men).
I was also considering the fact that the Mysterious man would have originally have seen the young pretty witch, and met her again as the hag when she claims Rapunzel and whether when they cross paths later there _is_ some sort of chemistry between them (even if he didn't rape her - she perhaps fancied him, and thus her mother cursed her to protect her). |
Good deductions! I used that general idea for my fanfic.
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Jman383
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Oh I definitely like where all this brainstorming is going. I never thought about her being powerless to connect to the fact that now she is once again ceceptable to men and their "wonders" (for lack of a better word I suppose). I love it.
As for the MM and the Witch kind of having re-chemistry if you will... now that I DID see from the get go. I think it's definitely one of those "awk" sexual tensions when they meet up in the woods and she "outs" him to his son. I sooo see the relationship stemming through.
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