The REAL Ciaron
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Sondheim vs. RiceWho is the better lyricist?
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RainbowJude
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Sondheim vs RiceAs far as establishing and developing character and situaton, and even in just writing lyrics that work in their own right, Sondheim easily outshines Rice.
But I think their work is so stylistically different that making the comparison is pretty pointless. I somehow doubt that Sondheim and Rice have the same intention when they start work on a project and, from what I've read, their methods of working are vastly different too.
I think it's obvious that Sondheim works wholistically whereas Rice more obviously uses the idea of "spots". And Sondheim is more eclectic in his use of language, while Rice's work has remained rooted within the idiomatic tradtitions of the UK English.
Later days
David
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Salome
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Obviously its Sondheim.
Rice's work spans from the sublime (Someone Elses Story,Anthem,Pilates Dream and Waltz for Eva and Che) to the ridiculous (the whole score of AIDA,The Ladies got Potential)
Sondheim is a true artist...wo doesnt rest till each line is what he wants..he still moans over his "i feel pretty" lyrics to this day.
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RainbowJude
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Aida | Salome wrote: | | Rice's work spans from the sublime... to the ridiculous (the whole score of AIDA...) |
Aida does have "Written in the Stars" and "Elaborate Lives", which I think are pretty good. And My Strongest Suit has a certain appeal, but I think that might be more of a guilty pleasure...
Later days
David
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MrsJamieWellerstein
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My Strongest Suit is an amusing song when sung by Sherie Rene Scott and set to random pictures of Norbert Leo Butz (my friend Luisa is weird). Other than that, AIDA sucks.
Rice has some good stuff. Can't remember what they are, but I know there's some stuff I like.
Overall...why is this even a question? Lyrics are what Sondheim is most often praised for. Similarly, he is always often complained about for the same reason: "there so harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd!!11!!!one".
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Dvarg
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There's no comparishion. Sondheim is the best lyricist. When that is said, I love intensely much of Tim Rice' lyrics, because he's soo good in doing his style. My Facvourite TR lyric is the Margaret Thatcher acronyme in Blondel, which is a very underrated show. And his Assassin's Song is nearly as good as A Little Priest - which is the utmost best compliment any lyricist can ever receive.
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what_the_heck013
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Re: Sondheim vs Rice | RainbowJude wrote: | | But I think their work is so stylistically different that making the comparison is pretty pointless. |
Yup. Agreed. But Sondheim's choice of words is very great and he comes up with rhymes that one would have never though of.
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RainbowJude
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The Off Day | what_the_heck013 wrote: | | Sondheim... comes up with rhymes that one would have never though of. |
This is true. And they are fantastic 99.9% of the time. Then there's the other 0.1% of the time; I guess even the master has his off days. For example, there's that lyric from the film version of A Little Night Music:
| Sondheim wrote: | Love is a lecture
On now to correct your
Mistakes. |
It's an interesting sentiment, but a dodgy lyric and a bad rhyme.
Later days
David
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dramaqueen220222
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Did you really think here, on a Sondheim board, anyone would choose Rice?
Sondheim.
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Frank_Rind
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I join the chorus...Sondheim of course.
His lyrics are intelligent, intricate, character-driven and many other good things, as opposed to Tim Rice's poorly-structured and occasionally nonsensical pop lyrics. While it is very true that both write in completely different styles, it is the former that I prefer.
This, however, is just my personal opinion...I'm sure others would disagree depending on the style of musical theatre they prefer.
Hopefully that makes sense. Its late.
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Desperado
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Fine. I'll pick Rice.
He did good stuff!
I've always thought One Jump Ahead (Aladdin) was decent and The Past Is Another Land (Aida) were really good. They're not complex or hard to say but they're nice:( I dunno. cry.
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Fontinau
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| Desperado wrote: | | I've always thought One Jump Ahead (Aladdin) was decent... |
That's Howard Ashman.
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Jennyanydots
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| Fontinau wrote: | | Desperado wrote: | | I've always thought One Jump Ahead (Aladdin) was decent... |
That's Howard Ashman. |
That's hilarious because I was just thinking, "DAMN! Rice wrote that?!? That was a GOOD SONG!! And....Rice wrote that???"
Good to know my opinion of Rice is still the same.
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Fontinau
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| Jennyanydots wrote: | That's hilarious because I was just thinking, "DAMN! Rice wrote that?!? That was a GOOD SONG!! And....Rice wrote that???"
Good to know my opinion of Rice is still the same. |
Maybe it shouldn't be. Ashman's colloquial lyrical style was definately influenced by Rice - more than usual in "One Jump".
(Though admittedly this might be a case of the student doing it better than the teacher.)
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The REAL Ciaron
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What songs from Alladin did Rice write?
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RainbowJude
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Ashman / RiceActually Tim Rice did write the lyrics for "One Jump Ahead". The other songs he wrote for Aladdin were: "One Jump Ahead (Reprise)", "A Whole New World" and "Prince Ali (Reprise)".
Howard Ashman wrote "Arabian Nights", "Friend Like Me"and "Prince Ali".
Later days
David
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Guest
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Re: Ashman / Rice | RainbowJude wrote: | | Actually Tim Rice did write the lyrics for "One Jump Ahead". The other songs he wrote for Aladdin were: "One Jump Ahead (Reprise)", "A Whole New World" and "Prince Ali (Reprise)". |
*goes to allmusic*
*checks credits*
F_ck. Twice in as many days.
I always though Howard Ashman finished everything except the reprises and "Whole New World" before he died. Oh well, at least now I can stop wondering about the "rather tasty" line.
Now I have to apologize to Desperado, don't I?
Ah, screw it.
*commits seppuku instead*
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RainbowJude
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Musical lyricists | Fontinau wrote: | | I always though Howard Ashman finished everything except the reprises and "Whole New World" before he died. |
The entire film was revised in the time period between Ashman's death and the start of production. Aladdin's mother was jettisoned (along with the immensely moving "Proud of Your Boy") and various other story points were changed too. Menken even had a stab at writing both music and lyrics at a new establishing ballad piece for Aladdin before Rice was hired.
The first song Menken and Rice completed was "A Whole New World". Then "One Jump Ahead", which became Aladdin's establishing number and the ballad spot was filled with the reprise that follows shortly after the production number. They also wrote a couple of other songs for Jafar to sing in the spot where the reprise of "Prince Ali" is. Both of these are a bit too punny to be funny and certainly aren't as good as anything that made it into the film.
Later days
David
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Fontinau
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Re: Musical lyricists | RainbowJude wrote: | | The entire film was revised in the time period between Ashman's death and the start of production. Aladdin's mother was jettisoned (along with the immensely moving "Proud of Your Boy") and various other story points were changed too. |
Yeah, I already knew about "Proud of Your Boy".
I once came up with a theory that dropping that song was the single decisive moment that killed Disney's second "golden age".
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RainbowJude
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Golden Age | Fontinau wrote: | | I once came up with a theory that dropping ("Proud of Your Boy") was the single decisive moment that killed Disney's second "golden age". |
I don't know if I'd go that far, for two reasons. First, I think that they made the right decision in cutting "Proud of Your Boy"; it doesn't have a place in the film that was made and I don't think Disney animation - with the possible expection of Beauty and the Beast and (to a lesser extent) The Little Mermaid - has ever produced the kind of film in which that song would have had a place.
Second, I don't think the second golden age was in fact the second age and I don't think it was stopped short with Aladdin. I'd say the first golden age was 1937 - 1942 (Snow White - Bambi). The second golden age lasted from 1950 - 1967 (Cinderella - The Jungle Book with The Sword in the Stone (1963) marking the start of the decline). The third golden age ran from 1989 - 1996 (The Little Mermaid - The Hunchback of Notre Dame with the first signs of decline in Pocahontas (1995). I think that the last mentioned film marks the beginning of the end, because that was when storytelling took a back seat to formula, pleasing the audience, political correctness and trendy self-referential comedy.
But that's just my point of view....
Later days
David
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Fontinau
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Re: Golden Age | RainbowJude wrote: | | I think that they made the right decision in cutting "Proud of Your Boy"; it doesn't have a place in the film that was made and I don't think Disney animation - with the possible expection of Beauty and the Beast and (to a lesser extent) The Little Mermaid - has ever produced the kind of film in which that song would have had a place. |
That's exactly why it cutting it was the death of the "second golden age". It represented the end of Disney's (admittedly brief) period of making movies with characters who could support that kind of song.
Artistic "golden ages" don't end with the first weak effort an artist (or, in Disney's case, a company) puts out. That first weak effort is simply the point where the number of growing weaknesses reach a critical mass and are no longer obscured by concurrent strengths.
Aladdin was the movie where Disney discovered they could get away with boring main characters and a formulaic plot as long as they surrounded them with a colorful supporting cast and lots of clever inside jokes to keep the parents entertained. And the presence of Robin Williams was a prelude to them discovering the commercial potential of using movie celebrities in the voice cast in The Lion King. (Which is also where they discovered the commercial potential of contracting an established pop songwriter to do the soundtrack.)
Those discoveries didn't make Aladdin and The Lion King themselves bad movies. But they started trends which did bring down subsequent movies - main characters and plots getting ever more boring, supporting characters getting ever more intrusive, inside jokes getting ever more obnoxiously blatant, songs getting ever blander, voice casting getting ever more celebrity driven, regardless of the quality of the celebrity's singing voice or the distinctiveness of his speaking voice (Mel Gibson?!?!), etc.
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Desperado
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Re: Golden Age | Fontinau wrote: | | Aladdin was the movie where Disney discovered they could get away with boring main characters and a formulaic plot as long as they surrounded them with a colorful supporting cast and lots of clever inside jokes to keep the parents entertained. And the presence of Robin Williams was a prelude to them discovering the commercial potential of using movie celebrities in the voice cast in The Lion King. (Which is also where they discovered the commercial potential of contracting an established pop songwriter to do the soundtrack.) |
I never liked Robin Williams as the Genie. He was funny and all...but hell, they gave him two songs in a row! And the songs sucked:(
I did't think Mel Gibson was really that bad in Pocahontas, though.
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Fontinau
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| Desperado wrote: | | I never liked Robin Williams as the Genie. He was funny and all...but hell, they gave him two songs in a row! And the songs sucked:( |
I should disclose that, while the trend of celebrity voice casting which Robin Williams helped start was a bad thing, I think Robin Williams himself was GREAT as the genie.
And "Friend Like Me" is a great song.
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Desperado
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He was good as the Genie, but I didn't like his songs at all.
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Fontinau
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Re: Golden Age | Desperado wrote: | | I didn't think Mel Gibson was really that bad in Pocahontas, though. |
Missed this the first time.
And I agree, he wasn't bad - he was just totally nondescript. There's nothing distinctive or unusual about his voice, and his voice acting ability isn't any better than that of any of a hundred guys earning minimum wage dubbing Japanese cartoons.
There was no reason to cast him - except the dubious notion that having a recognizeable celebrity voice one of your animated characters will automatically increase your box office take.
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RainbowJude
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More Disney.... | Fontinau wrote: | | Artistic "golden ages" don't end with the first weak effort an artist (or, in Disney's case, a company) puts out. That first weak effort is simply the point where the number of growing weaknesses reach a critical mass and are no longer obscured by concurrent strengths. |
Sure. But I believe there was a definite sense of "Disney's back" when Cinderella was released in 1950. The studio had, for various reasons (some beyond their control), not released a distinctive animated feature since Bambi. And that sense was repeated in 1989 with the release of The Little Mermaid, hence my choice to outline three "golden ages".
| Fontinau wrote: | | Aladdin was the movie where Disney discovered they could get away with boring main characters.... And the presence of Robin Williams was a prelude to them discovering the commercial potential of using movie celebrities in the voice cast in The Lion King.... Those discoveries... started trends which did bring down subsequent movies - main characters and plots getting ever more boring, supporting characters getting ever more intrusive, inside jokes getting ever more obnoxiously blatant, songs getting ever blander, voice casting getting ever more celebrity driven, regardless of the quality of the celebrity's singing voice or the distinctiveness of his speaking voice (Mel Gibson?!?!), etc. |
I don't think that the central characters of Aladdin were boring. Aladdin is arguably one of the more complex leading male characters in a Disney feature, particularly of those that are based on fairy and folk tales. He's leaps and bounds ahead of both Prince Charmings as well as Eric. And although Jasmine has stronger competition from the more strongly-depicted Disney heroines, I think she manages to hold her own too.
Robin Williams may have been one of the most successful celebrity voice actors used by Disney and may have influenced the extent to which celebrity actors were used in Disney animation after Aladdin, but he was by no means the first. The 1980s had Billy Joel, Bette Midler and Pearl Bailey and celebrity casting was even used when Disney was alive - the 1950s had Peggy Lee and the 1960s and 1970s had Phil Harris in three roles.
I certainly don't think any of the celebrity cast members in The Lion King hindered the film. And I don't think that Mel Gibson was a bad choice for John Smith either. He had the robust, manly, adventurous qualities required for the character and if anyone is to blame for that character being indistinct or nondescript, it's the screenwriters and the directors (for cutting what was the centrepiece of the personal narratives in Pocahontas, "If I Never Knew You". Thank goodness that song has been restored in the new DVD release; it's essential and makes all the difference.
For me, cutting that song was the end of Disney making movies that could support a song like "Proud of Your Boy". Pocahontas, for me, was where the screenwriting started become thinner when it needed to become more complex. And so that film will always signal the decline of this golden age for me.
Later days
David
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The REAL Ciaron
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Take it to PM's people!
Damn hijackers!!
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