[Dvarg]

I have now the recent revival recordings of the four R&H musicals I believe are the greatest: Oklahoma! with Hugh Jackman, the London Carousel revival, The King And I with Donna Murphy and the RNT South Pacific. I also have the Allegro obcr.

The thing is, apart from seemingly flawlessness, I don't really find them that great They all have their moments, but to me they aren't funny enough to pass as good fluff and they are a little bit too sentimental to capture my feelings.

Naturally I respect R&H for their inventiveness and integrity. I just don't manage to feel like I believe I ought to feel when listening to their shows.

Can you enlighten me?

[JeffF]

Dvarg, first of all you have to understand Oklahoma's popularity at the time it came out. No musical had totally integrated the songs with the story before. It was a novel concept to open a musical with just one singer and with a song "Oh What a Beautiful Morning" that was not a big splashy number. The song still holds up quite well, with it's quiet power. It was to first to totally integrate song, dance and story and the first musical to have a man die on stage. That's just some of the firsts.
As far as the score, it's a nice blend of lightly serious and comic. As far as the sentimentality, Oscar Hammerstein was a sentamentalist and a lot of his lyrics over the years reflected that. Yet, even here, he would sometimes write in a more powerful vein, as in "Lonely Room".
It's a more varied score for both men than it's usually given credit for.

Carousel to me is all about Rodgers. It's one of his strongest scores, starting with the Carousel Waltz, but also "If I Loved You,", "What's the Use of Wondering"(also a superb song for Oscar) and the "Soliloquy", among others. The thing about Carousel is that they could have been content to just try and repeat Oklahoma in another show. That kind of thing, with composers and lyricists doing the same basic show in another name was very common then, but Rodgers was always looking for something new.

South Pacific is a character show. Have you seen it? What I'm trying to say here is that every song fits very well with the character who sings it. It's some of the best characters ever written and these are songs that are totally in character. Although the score is quite good in its own right, I don't think this one can be truly fairly judged until you see it, because for the most part, these are songs that couldn't be in another show.
They are also singers songs. Most of the major male singers of the day recorded "Some Enchanted Evening" because it's the kind of song everybody with talent is going to be able to turn into something of their own. I can't imagine a man not wanting to play Emil or Cable and I can't imagine a woman not wanting to play Nellie or Mary and the songs are part of that. Again R and H took on themes that had not been done before.
Again, with "Carefully Taught" Oscar broke out of sentimental vein to reflect strong views.

King and I is a personal favorite. I love this score. The King, Anna and Tuptim all have great songs. I have to say though that while I often love Donna Murphy, I did not love her here, or her co-star. I don't think you can't the true greatness of this score from the version you have. It wasn't as innovative in story or score as the other shows you named, but it's still a very strong show and score. Yes, there is still a lot of sentimentaltiy, but both men were very good at that and people were looking for honest sentiment. You have to write lyrics to reflect who you are and Oscar did this throughout his career.

I saw a much improved Allegro, with the book rewritten by Oscar's grandson. I'm hoping it tours. It's a good score and with this tighter book, it works much better.

You might consider getting some shows the men wrote apart from each other. Shows with scores that are very good, but also show the differences from when they were together. For Oscar, do you have Show Boat? That should be a must in every collection. Also, get Carmen Jones, one of Oscar's most unique shows and one I'm very fond of.

For Rodgers, see if you can get The Boys From Syracuse, a marvelous score he wrote with Larry Hart. Also, Simple Simon, another Hart Score, particularly if you can get the original with Ruth Etting singing "Ten Cents a Dance" and from Rodgers later days, Rex, written with Sheldon Harnick. "As Once I Loved You" and "Away From You" are two of Rodgers very best songs.

My other suggestion is to try and see some of the R and H shows. Judge the scores in context and especially with Carousel and South Pacific, I think you'll get a fuller understanding of why R&H are so highly valued.

[MusicFan]

[Dvarg]

JeffF, I forgot to thank you. It was very enlightening.

[JeffF]

Thanks, Dvarg.

Musicfan, I have a mild disagreement with what you say. Show Boat was a great step forward for Broadway, and is still a great musical, easily one of Hammerstein's best, and it was the most integrated use of story and song up to that time, but it was not wholly integrated in my opinion. There are songs in the show that don't move the plot along or reveal character, etc. which is not true of Oklahoma and Carousel. Show Boat's plot is more important and gutsier than Oklahoma's and considering the type of shows that were usually put on then, it's still stunning how much was done in that show, but Oklahoma really is more complete as far as story, song and dance all working together as central parts of the show.

[Salome]

[JeffF]

"I Caint say no" is a character song. Character songs automatically move the plot by establishing character in a song and saving time.

"The Farmer and the Cowman" I concede is just a production number, a very enjoyable one, but nothing much changes if you cut it from the show.

[MusicFan]

Hi Jeff,

It was great to read your post, thanks for your reply!

I'd be interested to know what you thought of the revisions that Kern and Hammerstein made to the score in the 40s. Do you think they improved the show or do you think it was inferior to the original version?
Also, as both a fan of Oklahoma and Show Boat, I'd be really interested to know which songs in Show Boat you feel don't move the plot along in the way they should or reveal character in the way they should.

[JeffF]

I just saw this, Music Fan. I think the first version of Show Boat was the best because of how fresh and daring it was for the time. Having said that, I will say that I think "Nobody Else But Me" in the later version is a very strong song for both men.

Please don't misunderstand me. I think Show Boat is a great show and very revolutionary in its time, so I'm not sure I would say "As it should" because few shows had songs central to the plot in the way "Show Boat" did. But, it still didn't go as far as Oklahoma did later. I would say for example "Can't Help Loving Dat Man" is neither plot or character driven. It works as a plot device because of it being recognized later, but that spot could have been filled by any song. It's a terrific song, but it's not central to the story in any way. "Bill' would be another that is not in itself central to plot or character. It's a torch song that is inserted in the way torch songs were then. I realize Kern didn't write it, but it still fits your question.

I value the score highly. In fact, I picked it as Hammerstein's best work when they were asking about your favorites on the board. It's a great breakthrough in terms of integration of plot and music and very daring. I would just say that Oklahoma went further, by having most songs(and dance) advance the plot, and by discarding a chorus number as the opening. None of this takes away from how daring the mixed race plot was in Show Boat or how great the score is.

[Salome]

Cant Help Lovin Dat Man gives us as an audience the first hint that Julie may be black.


Kern did write "Bill"..Hammerstien didnt.


Goodbye my Lady Love and i mIght Fall bACK On You are both production numbers sung by Fank and Ellie in their Act.

[RainbowJude]

[Dvarg]

First of all, I wrote this about 1 1/2 years ago, so my attitude towards the R/H shows has probably changed a little.

[Mara]

[RainbowJude]

[Yip1982]

I'd really love to bring SOM into the discussion. I know it wasn't a strong stage show, but there are some endearing things about it.
Yes, I know that Lindsay & Crouse wrote the script, but Hammerstein's lyrics need not be sentimental. The title song demonstrates the genuine sense of longing for liberation and freedom that we all experience when our loves become an iron cage. This is similar to the sense of longing that Hammerstein achieved in so many of his lyrics.
Turning, rather surprisingly, to Edelweiss, I can see some deeper undertones in this song because Hammerstein identified with Captain von Trapp's sense of loss when he was writing this lyric, suffering from cancer.
But to add to this general discussion of R&H, I really like the way you discuss Hammerstein's sincerity. I like it how his lyrics give us strength in trying times, yet with an honesty that was all his own. And not just in You'll Never Walk Alone and Climb Ev'ry Mountain, but also in Lady Thiang's song, Something Wonderful. I like the words that Hammerstein makes her sing, because they help us recognise good things in what may be considered bad.

[Dvarg]