Fontinau
|
Should Mimi have died?Okay, I admit it, I get a big stupid smile on my face every time Mimi comes back from the great beyond and Mark starts off "No Day But Today". But from an artistic, rather than an emotional viewpoint, would it have been a better choice to have Mimi die at the end of RENT?
|
Jesus
|
mimi comming back, to me, is symbolic of second chances. and i think that is important.
|
Fontinau
|
| Jesus wrote: | | mimi comming back, to me, is symbolic of second chances. and i think that is important. |
Not when you consider that the entire point of RENT up to that point is that there are no second chances.
"There is no future, there is no past,
I live this moment as my last...
No day but today!"
|
Jesus
|
i dont think thats the point at all...it shows that life is both happy and sad, and mimi comming back shows that not everything in life is morbid
|
SilverTimotei
|
Artistically, she should have died.
Emotionally, (and this coming from someone who loves a good angsty story) I'm very glad she lived. 
|
Fontinau
|
| Jesus wrote: | | i dont think thats the point at all...it shows that life is both happy and sad, and mimi comming back shows that not everything in life is morbid |
True enough. That's more or less the reasoning I used to use to defend Mimi coming back to life at the end. Over time, though, my opinion of RENT has changed.
The point made over and over again in the show is that AIDS, poverty, etc. have made the future an uncertainty. The only way to live happily is to live for the moment.
Giving Mimi and Roger a 'second chance' chucks that entire plot point out the window at the last second, invalidating one of the play's central messages. Am I the only one who thinks its kind of ridiculous to have the entire cast singing "No day but today..." at the end of the show, when Mimi and Roger have just been granted 'another day'?
On top of that, Mimi coming back from the dead validates one of the accusations frequently brought against RENT - that it downplays the horrors of dying from AIDS. For most of the play, I think Jonathan Larson manages to effectively show both the suffering of AIDS victims ("Will I?", Angel's death...), and their ability to continue living their lives ("La Vie Boheme"). But having an HIV+ woman who's been freezing out on the streets, and is suffering from a heavy fever, suddenly get better because her beau sings a love song....... the critics have a point.
Finally, the way Mimi comes back to life ("There was this bright white light! And Angel was there!") is implausible, contrived, and cliched.
|
Mark Cohen
|
I always thought it was a nice ending seeing how Roger has been through hell and back and Roger always rejected Mimi's message of "No Day But Today." This showed him that then love of his life could go at any minute and that they should live their life to the fullest.
|
Leigh
|
I'm torn on this subject. In La Boheme, Mimi dies. It makes sense, because she was dying from TB, but so was Rodolfo and some of the others. It made perfect sense, and it wasn't farfetched at all.
Now, in RENT, it seems quite strange that Mimi doesn't die. As someone pointed out, she's freezing on the streets and dying of AIDS- wouldn't that together be enough? And to think that Mimi just doesn't come back- she BOUNCES back, and then she goes into singing. Seems a little weird, doesn't it?
However, I think Jon wanted a show about life, and to have Mimi die, it would be kind of depressing. How would he end the show if he had her die? I think it would have made more sense if he had her die, but, he didn't. Also, she miraculously bounces back right after Roger wails 'MIMI' over the blast of Musetta's Waltz. And I think if you just got back from the dead, you wouldn't suddenly yell out 'I jumped over the moon!!', but I wouldn't know, since I never came back from the dead.
But, since I'm a sap, I never wanted her to die.
|
Fontinau
|
| Leigh wrote: |
However, I think Jon wanted a show about life, and to have Mimi die, it would be kind of depressing. How would he end the show if he had her die? |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jonathan Larson originally plan to have Mimi die at the end of RENT, until his producers talked him out of it?
| Leigh wrote: | | But, since I'm a sap, I never wanted her to die. |
I don't want her to die either. But I also don't want Enjolras to die in "Les Miserables", or Leo Frank to get lynched in "Parade". Yet can you imagine how much those two plays would have sucked if the stories were reworked to have happy endings?
|
The Very Angry Woman
|
| Fontinau wrote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jonathan Larson originally plan to have Mimi die at the end of RENT, until his producers talked him out of it? |
No, it was the other way around.
|
Fontinau
|
| ( wrote: | | Mimi died in the Dutch production of Rent. |
Really? I had no idea... *scampers off to find out more about Dutch RENT*
| The Very Angry Woman wrote: | | Fontinau wrote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jonathan Larson originally plan to have Mimi die at the end of RENT, until his producers talked him out of it? |
No, it was the other way around. |
So you're saying Larson wanted Mimi to live, and his producers convinced him to kill her off? *feels incredibly stupid for obviously missing something here*
|
The Very Angry Woman
|
Larson always wanted Mimi to live, although the producers tried to convince him to write it otherwise.
(And I agree with their point of view.)
|
luvroger
|
In the Rent bible, Jonathan Larson didn't want Mimi to die because he felt Rent was about life not death. That is why he didn't make Mimi die like she did in La Boheme.
|
Fontinau
|
| The Very Angry Woman wrote: | Larson always wanted Mimi to live, although the producers tried to convince him to write it otherwise.
(And I agree with their point of view.) |
Hmm. This may be the first time I actually think the composer should have listened to the producers.
|
musicalstar
|
Although I think that she should have died...I don't know, I was actually kind of glad that she stayed alive. However, as a lot of you have said, she just starts singing, and she ridiculously survived, that was wrong.
I actually think that if she had to live, it would be a slight more dramatic. She would somehow stir, maybe sit up weakly or something, and everyone would sing (except for her) and the show would end. If she has to live, I don't think that she should finish the show up in prime condition.
|
Jesus
|
but don't forget this is still a musical. and in musicals everyone sings, wether their sick, dying, or even dead.
|
SilverTimotei
|
Exactly.
|
musicalstar
|
I don't care that it's a musical. It would have worked better dramatically, in sending a message. Now people want to be bohemians, and God knows if there are people who want to have AIDS or something...as said, the ending glorifies the conditions; which aren't admirable.
|
The Very Angry Woman
|
I honestly didn't care one way or the other until I saw Jeremy Kushnier as Roger. His incredible performance in the final scene made me feel betrayed when Mimi came back to life.
|
SilverTimotei
|
| musicalstar wrote: | | I don't care that it's a musical. It would have worked better dramatically, in sending a message. |
I'm not saying I LIKED the overly-happy way she came back to life. That could have been done better. But on the whole I agree with Larson and think that there's enough things out there about death and that RENT is about the celebration of life and second chances.
|
WorldEpcot
|
I'm really kind of glad she came back to life. If she died, we wouldn't have the awesome rock finale .
|
Fontinau
|
| WorldEpcot wrote: | | I'm really kind of glad she came back to life. If she died, we wouldn't have the awesome rock finale . |
Anybody know whether the Dutch production found a way of incorporating "Finale B"? (Or did they just end on "Your Eyes", or what?)
| SilverTimotei wrote: | | But on the whole I agree with Larson and think that there's enough things out there about death and that RENT is about the celebration of life and second chances. |
I know I've already said this. But really, can someone explain to me how a musical which ends on the line "No day but today!" is about 'second chances'?
|
Mark Cohen
|
| Fontinau wrote: | | WorldEpcot wrote: | | I'm really kind of glad she came back to life. If she died, we wouldn't have the awesome rock finale . |
Anybody know whether the Dutch production found a way of incorporating "Finale B"? (Or did they just end on "Your Eyes", or what?)
| SilverTimotei wrote: | | But on the whole I agree with Larson and think that there's enough things out there about death and that RENT is about the celebration of life and second chances. |
I know I've already said this. But really, can someone explain to me how a musical which ends on the line "No day but today!" is about 'second chances'? |
I remember hearing from somewhere that Roger carried Mimi offstage as Mark sang "There is no future, there is no past" etc.
The Dutch cast is amazing. I recommend buying the c.d, but I'm afraid it is out of print. Nurlaila Karim (Dutch Mimi) is amazing.
|
luvroger
|
Well if you all notice, Mimi never stands up or walks around after she comes back. She just sits up and Roger keeps his arm around her while they sing the Finale. I just recently saw Baz Luhrman's La Boheme and Mimi sings until she dies in a chair.
|
moo_with_me
|
I have to agree with musicalstar...although this may be because I'm an avid fan of La Boheme, but I think it would have been more dramatic and even more--dare I say it?--realistic if Mimi had died. TVAW was right, as well...Jeremy Kushnier did such a fantastic performance at her death scene, that it was rather odd and abrupt that she suddenly came back to life.
Not to mention that the dialogue for that scene is not the best. 
|
NurseCodeBlue
|
I think Mimi's coming-back-from-the-dead-scene is more about affirming life, and not necessarily about getting a second chance.
I've seen so many bad Mimis in the (hello Julia Santana!) that I would have rather Mimi stayed dead.
But for dramatic reasons, I think it works well for Rent. After Angel's death, I don't think the majority of the audience would have liked to have sat through another one esp for the finale.
Off topic: Should KIM, in Miss Saigon, shoot Ellen in the end as well?  (j/k)
|
Mark Cohen
|
| NurseCodeBlue wrote: |
But for dramatic reasons, I think it works well for Rent. After Angel's death, I don't think the majority of the audience would have liked to have sat through another one esp for the finale.
|
My parents still think that RENT is too "depressing and dark" for their tastes.
|
artcoleap
|
| Mark Cohen wrote: | | Fontinau wrote: | | WorldEpcot wrote: | | I'm really kind of glad she came back to life. If she died, we wouldn't have the awesome rock finale . |
Anybody know whether the Dutch production found a way of incorporating "Finale B"? (Or did they just end on "Your Eyes", or what?)
| SilverTimotei wrote: | | But on the whole I agree with Larson and think that there's enough things out there about death and that RENT is about the celebration of life and second chances. |
I know I've already said this. But really, can someone explain to me how a musical which ends on the line "No day but today!" is about 'second chances'? |
I remember hearing from somewhere that Roger carried Mimi offstage as Mark sang "There is no future, there is no past" etc.
The Dutch cast is amazing. I recommend buying the c.d, but I'm afraid it is out of print. Nurlaila Karim (Dutch Mimi) is amazing. |
The Dutch Mimi is my hero, seriously though, I think that Mimi not dying was a good idea because as already said, this show is about life, not death.
|
Azelma
|
| Mark Cohen wrote: |
My parents still think that RENT is too "depressing and dark" for their tastes. |
You're lucky! They just say it's depressing. Mine forbid me from seeing it because they'd seen it and didn't like the things it promoted. That's why I have to listen to it while they're on vacation, use headsets, and hide the cd.
Personally, I don't think Mimi should have lived. I really like her and all, but it was kind of ridiculous (by the sound of the recording anyways)
|
Jesus
|
but if that happened then people would left the theatre on sad note, and probably feeling pretty down. if that happened then alot of the message of RENT would be lost in the emotions the last 5 mins would stir up...since rent is a play about life, and not death, why would you have the final scene be a death scene? and dont forget your atching a musical. im your saying that it would be more realistic for mimi to die then wouldn't it also be mor realistic for these people to not break out into song with a full orchastra comming from nowhere?? think about it.
|
Azelma
|
but it's a musical it's assumed that they'll sing. It's not a rule that because people should sing that things not make sense.
|
musicalstar
|
| Jesus wrote: | | but if that happened then people would left the theatre on sad note, and probably feeling pretty down. if that happened then alot of the message of RENT would be lost in the emotions the last 5 mins would stir up...since rent is a play about life, and not death, why would you have the final scene be a death scene? and dont forget your atching a musical. im your saying that it would be more realistic for mimi to die then wouldn't it also be mor realistic for these people to not break out into song with a full orchastra comming from nowhere?? think about it. |
Don't watch any musicals where people die? And stay dead? And go out without a song?
There are quite a few.
|
Jesus
|
there may be a few, but are they about life??? is their theme to live in the moment?? les mis...about redemption, godspell and JCS..well thoses deaths both serve a purpose, and fit in with the theme of the shows...im saying that to end rent on such a depressing note wouldn't reflect what larson was trying to say with the show, and detract from the overall message.
|
musicalstar
|
Live in the moment = no day but today = no tomorrow.
What kind of message about life again?
|
Fontinau
|
| musicalstar wrote: | Live in the moment = no day but today = no tomorrow.
What kind of message about life again? |
Thanks, musicalstar. Been trying to say that for three pages now.
|
Jesus
|
even larson said that the show was about life. and if you look at the show its more about people living than about them dying, it ma have a character die, but its more about how the other characters react to hi death. i think that it would work either way, but her living is much more effective.
|
musicalstar
|
| Jesus wrote: | | even larson said that the show was about life. and if you look at the show its more about people living than about them dying, it ma have a character die, but its more about how the other characters react to hi death. i think that it would work either way, but her living is much more effective. |
The show is about LIFE. Yes, I agree.
It's about the fact that life can be taken away from us so suddenly.
And how we have to enjoy every moment.
Why should she have to come alive? Who really has that chance when they're dying?
|
The Very Angry Woman
|
| Jesus wrote: | | even larson said that the show was about life. |
But it's not like La Bohème was about death.
|
moo_with_me
|
I suppose Larson reversed the message a bit...La Boheme certainly was not about life, not in the sense that Rent is. "No day but today" sums up Rent's intentional message, but I'm not sure what La Boheme's was...I won't say anything, not having seen it.
|
Jesus
|
but too end the show on such a depreesing note, it makes the audience forget alot of the rest of the show...with Mimi surviving, the audience can focus on the true thoughts and themes behind rent
|
musicalstar
|
Ending the show on a depressing note shows that Mimi didn't have a second chance.
As do most of us.
|
Fontinau
|
| Jesus wrote: | | but too end the show on such a depreesing note, it makes the audience forget alot of the rest of the show...with Mimi surviving, the audience can focus on the true thoughts and themes behind rent |
No, Mimi surviving essentially negates the 'true thoughts and themes' behind "Rent".
I think it's a really unfortunate tendancy among modern composers (and directors - I'm looking at you, Mr. Spielberg) to assume that an audience can't take a show without a big smiley happy ending.
Back in the age of opera, composers still had the guts to end their shows on a serious note. And you know what's interesting - people don't seem to walk out of "Carmen" or "La Boheme" feeling depressed.
|
Jesus
|
unfortunatly not all people are as sophiscated and open minded as you. the average person, who goes to see a show with a depressing ending will leave depressed.
|
musicalstar
|
Where are the statistics, pray tell?
|
SilverTimotei
|
I find with sad endings I value the good things in my life all the greater, but that's just me. I love both kinds of ending. Rent could get away with both in my opinion. I understand both sides of this debate.
|
Fontinau
|
| Jesus wrote: | | unfortunatly not all people are as sophiscated and open minded as you. the average person, who goes to see a show with a depressing ending will leave depressed. |
Umm, re-read my post, Jesus. My point was that, contrary to popular belief, the 'average persons' who have seen operas, musicals, or films with sad endings do not usually walk away depressed.
| SilverTimotei wrote: | | I find with sad endings I value the good things in my life all the greater, but that's just me. I love both kinds of ending. Rent could get away with both in my opinion. I understand both sides of this debate. |
Wow. A mature, polite, well-reasoned post. Damn it, SilverTimotei, I was having fun bickering! 
|
Jesus
|
average people dont often go to see opera, and if they do, they are usually too preoccupied pretendiong to hate it, to pay mujch attention at all to the actually goings on
|
SilverTimotei
|
| Fontinau wrote: |
Wow. A mature, polite, well-reasoned post. Damn it, SilverTimotei, I was having fun bickering! |
|
DramaRobin2002
|
| Jesus wrote: | | average people dont often go to see opera, and if they do, they are usually too preoccupied pretendiong to hate it, to pay mujch attention at all to the actually goings on |
I have to disagree with that. An average person can love opera. Being average doesn't mean that you have to be a moron who knows nothing except when the latest teeny bopper CD is coming out. I mean, most of us on here are average people, right? Anyway, that being said I think from an artistic point of view it would be more realistic for Mimi to have died or at least been weaker coming back. But from the point of view of a fan and audience member, I don't think I would have liked that ending quite as much. I don't have much to say on the "no day but today" and getting a second chance debate, but it seems to me that you can look at it like Roger and Mimi may be getting a second chance this time but how many others will they possibly have in the future you don't see in the show. Though that's probably reaching a bit, I guess that's how I've always thought of it.
~~~Amy~~~
|
Fontinau
|
| Jesus wrote: | | average people dont often go to see opera, and if they do, they are usually too preoccupied pretendiong to hate it, to pay mujch attention at all to the actually goings on |
I agree with what DramaRobin said. And, even if 'average people' didn't go to the opera today, they did 100 years ago. "La Boheme" was one of the most popular operas in history, despite it's sad ending.
And consider two of the most popular recent musicals - "Les Miserables" and "Phantom of the Opera". Neither of those has an exactly happy ending either.
|
moo_with_me
|
Actually, it's quite in style now for musicals to have sad endings.
As I've said, it would have been more [i]realistic[/i] for Mimi to die, but I suppose that Rent really is about second chances, so it's all right for her to "come back"...though I do still think the dialogue for that scene could have been much improved.XD
|
Fontinau
|
| moo_with_me wrote: |
As I've said, it would have been more realistic for Mimi to die, but I suppose that Rent really is about second chances, so it's all right for her to "come back"...though I do still think the dialogue for that scene could have been much improved.XD |
Can someone PLEASE explain how "Rent" is about 'second chances'? I'm not being rhetorical; so many people here seem convinced of this that I'm starting to wonder whether I've missed something...
|
Munkujanna
|
Mimi dies in Sweden too! Why does everyone forget that??!! 
|
Mark Cohen
|
Can someone tell me in which productions Mimi dies.
All I know is the Dutch and Swedish productions.
|
DramaRobin2002
|
| Fontinau wrote: | | moo_with_me wrote: |
As I've said, it would have been more realistic for Mimi to die, but I suppose that Rent really is about second chances, so it's all right for her to "come back"...though I do still think the dialogue for that scene could have been much improved.XD |
Can someone PLEASE explain how "Rent" is about 'second chances'? I'm not being rhetorical; so many people here seem convinced of this that I'm starting to wonder whether I've missed something... |
I don't think that Rent is necessarily about second chances. After all, Angel doesn't get a second chance at life. I think with Mimi dying and coming back, it's more of a wake-up call for her and Roger. Like they should shape up and stop fighting because they're not going to keep getting second chances, that's not how life works. Of course, I also don't think that "No day but today" means no second chances. I think it means that you have to live for the moment and leave your regrets in the past. At least, that's how it comes across during "Another Day".
~~~Amy~~~
|
SilverTimotei
|
| DramaRobin2002 wrote: | I think with Mimi dying and coming back, it's more of a wake-up call for her and Roger. Like they should shape up and stop fighting because they're not going to keep getting second chances, that's not how life works.
|
Very good way of looking at it. I like that.
|
Darling
|
OK... A few little notes from a Dutch girl here :
First of all: YeeY! Luv Nurlaila (Dutch Mimi) too! She's great! The Dutch understudy Roger, Tino Bos, was great too!
On this forum it sounds like it's "clear" that Mimi died in Holland, but over here we had the discussion if she did or did not die... At least... Many people in the "musical scène" did *lol*. Did she die? It's in the middle I guess...
I love Daniël Cohen (he did the translations) and Ivo van Hove (the director) 's work! More people are positive about the translations, but they're mostly negative about Ivo van Hove. Ivo isn't a "real" musical director, but is well known in the theatre business. He directed many plays, most of them a bit experimental (that's probably the reason why people are negative about "his" Rent ). I think this experimental way of directing Rent isn't "far fetched and difficult" as many reviews said... It just fit Rent  !!
More Dutch RENT lovers on this forum?
Now I'm really gonna sleep...ZzzZZZzzz... It's 02:65 :S!
xx Annika
|
BroadwayDude34
|
Rent is a celebration and glorification of life, not death. It is true that Larson wants "No Day But Today", but killing Mimi off in the end I don't see as contradicting the No Day But Today attitude. "I live this moment as my last" doesn't really mean I'm dying now, it means appreciate everything you have because you don't know when it will be gone, and at the end Mimi as well as everyone else there, sees that rather than "Oh she died too" It's more that she'll appreciate what she has even more.
(And if you're complaining that at the end Mimi's singing, maybe someone should mention that Angel comes out as a man in the end and sings the rest of the Finale A when they split into the two men/women overlapping parts. That was kind of odd.)
|
Sara
|
| BroadwayDude34 wrote: | | (And if you're complaining that at the end Mimi's singing, maybe someone should mention that Angel comes out as a man in the end and sings the rest of the Finale A when they split into the two men/women overlapping parts. That was kind of odd.) |
And honestly, how did all those people get into the loft?
|
sondheim
|
KILL MIMI!
|
Mark Cohen
|
| sondheim wrote: | | KILL MIMI! |
I'd prefer to kill you.
|
moo_with_me
|
::rolls eyes:: Oh, come on. It was a joke.
|
Mark Cohen
|
| moo_with_me wrote: | | ::rolls eyes:: Oh, come on. It was a joke. |
and a stupid one at that.
|
Fontinau
|
| Mark Cohen wrote: | | moo_with_me wrote: | | ::rolls eyes:: Oh, come on. It was a joke. |
and a stupid one at that. |
If we're going to respond to every bad joke in these forums, we might as well give up discussing musicals altogether.
|
Brother Marvin Hinten, S.
|
I was once given the privilege of reading the RENT Bible. I must say, this really opened my eyes. Here's my combo answer from what I gleaned.
WHY DOESN'T MIMI DIE?
It's a play about life, not about death. It's about living another day with your diseases or your emotional roadblocks or your medical roadblocks or your economic roadblocks and realizing they're only roadblocks. Inspired, in part, by Susan Sontag's AIDS and Its Metaphors, the aim is to quash the already clichéd "AIDS victim" stereotypes and point out that A) people with AIDS can live full lives, B) AIDS affects everyone -- not just homosexuals and drug abusers, and C) in our desensitized culture, the ones grappling with life-and-death issues often live more fully than members of the so-called "mainstream."
In fact, this answer really explains a lot of the whole show.
Straight from Larson's mouth,
BM
|
Fontinau
|
| Brother Marvin Hinten, S. wrote: | | C) in our desensitized culture, the ones grappling with life-and-death issues often live more fully than members of the so-called "mainstream." |
I won't waste time explaining once again why I feel that Mimi's death weakens "Rent". Instead, let me ask this: How exactly do the characters in "Rent" live more 'fully' than members of the mainstream?
|
BaronSabato
|
Wow. So I used to post a lot, then I went off to college to become a biologist so I haven't posted in years. I still come back to see what people are talking about, and I see that the topics haven't changed too much.
Well, I don't agree with those who say that RENT's current ending contradicts the basic theme and message. "No day but today" is a way of looking at life rather than a statement of how life really is. For people who are living with disease, it is imperative that they make the most of the little time they have; i.e., to look at life as if there is no day but today, to seize the day, as it were. It doesn't rule out the possibiity of a second chance, of escaping death for just one more day... And of course reality does operate in this way. Despite what cynics might say, life is not hopeless; it offers second chances, although perhaps not in quite the same way Larson offered Mimi.
When looking at life the way the cast tells us to at the beginning of the second act, Angel's death makes sense because if we were to measure his life in love rather than minutes, i.e. qualitatively rather than quantitatively, we see that his life was full and long. For Mimi to die, both artistically and emotionally, it wouldn't make sense because she's barely begun to live her life. I think another person said it well: her near-death experience served as a wake-up call to live her life the way Angel did- as if there was no day but today. Mimi's resurrection is a direct consquence of the message in "Seasons of Love".
Thus, the ending, in which the cast sings "No Day But Today", is not ironic. It is the cast's way of joyfully expressing the outlook on life that Larson hoped everyone would follow. I don't think there's anything wrong with the ending- I couldn't imagine it any way else. Yes it's definitely true that Larson was a hopeless sentimentalist. And yet it's quite refreshing; I for one am tired of every single dramatic musical ending on a dreary depressing note. One thing that is so beautiful and unique about humanity is our capacity for hope even in life's darkest moments. Why not have this reflected in our art?
|
BaronSabato
|
| Fontinau wrote: | | Brother Marvin Hinten, S. wrote: | | C) in our desensitized culture, the ones grappling with life-and-death issues often live more fully than members of the so-called "mainstream." |
I won't waste time explaining once again why I feel that Mimi's death weakens "Rent". Instead, let me ask this: How exactly do the characters in "Rent" live more 'fully' than members of the mainstream? |
I just read this. Well, I think that Larson wanted to prove that the characters in RENT live for their art and their ideals and in some cases, for their love. Of course, it all depends on how you "measure" how full a life is. Larson inevitably felt that marginal communities do what they themselves want to do far more than a generalized mainstream (represented by Benny) that only lives for monetary success. I think as far as the show goes, he proved his point; of course, life and society is not really that simple.
|
DramaRobin2002
|
Well said Baron, I think you make a good point. I completely agree that 'No Day But Today' is a way to look at life and live life, not a statement ABOUT life. By the way, welcome back to the M.N community!
~~~Amy~~~
|
BaronSabato
|
| DramaRobin2002 wrote: | Well said Baron, I think you make a good point. I completely agree that 'No Day But Today' is a way to look at life and live life, not a statement ABOUT life. By the way, welcome back to the M.N community!
~~~Amy~~~ |
Thanks Amy! I'm glad to be back, although I may not post too often.
|
Jewel
|
Okay, I haven't read what all your people wrote so far. But ,emotionally speaking, I am also glad she survives. That scene is really weird though, I only have the German recording (excellent cast), her "moooo" makes me shiver and see the scene in a kind of critical way because what she says just doesn't fit into the situation (even though there is the reference to Maureen's song in the first act, of course).
|
Fontinau
|
| Fontinau wrote: | | Okay, I admit it, I get a big stupid smile on my face every time Mimi comes back from the great beyond and Mark starts off "No Day But Today". But from an artistic, rather than an emotional viewpoint, would it have been a better choice to have Mimi die at the end of RENT? |
| Jewel wrote: | | Okay, I haven't read what all your people wrote so far. But, emotionally speaking, I am also glad she survives. |
I don't understand what's so difficult about this.
|
milady05
|
Hmm...saw it Sunday. Lemme think.
From an audience point of view (hah! not "artistic" or "emotional." sorry ), I wish that they'd...not stretched the finale out a bit more, but...maybe. Yes...I was really getting into it when Mimi was dying; it was a "musical theatre moment" and everything sounded beautiful and was terribly sad. Then she bounces back.
And (general you're) you're right, I wouldn't want a second major character to die. Despite the fact that you can find, in other mediums or in other shows, examples of people dying and audiences still being content, I don't think that this applies in this case...maybe because it's a contemporary show? I don't know. But emotionally, no, Mimi shouldn't die.
Artistically, I can see your point, a bit...but I find myself agreeing with the "No Day but Today" as wake-up call" theory. After a near-death experience, Roger and Mimi will, at least right then, be able to realize that their love for each other overrides any arguments or concerns they had previously. Now, with a newfound appreciation for life, they'll be able to appreciate their time (and their love. aw.)
I guess my point was that the scene could be more...building, and then a reverse. But then it would be longer, and frankly, then I'd probably say that it drags on too much. It is the way it is. And I don't know how I'd re-write it.
...thereby getting contributing nothing to the discussion, except for to say, "I see this point, I see that point, I mostly agree with this point, but--I don't know," and getting back to, "Hmm. I don't know." but at least now you know I don't know!
|
musicalstar
|
Roger should have died.
Just a thought to throw out there.
|
luvroger
|
| musicalstar wrote: | Roger should have died.
Just a thought to throw out there. |
Hell no... One of the key points of Rent is to show Roger struggle with being HIV positive, cultivate and maintain relationships with those he cares about and ultimately lead a productive life. Having him die would just be giving up.
|
DramaRobin2002
|
I wouldn't say that dying means giving up. I mean, people die. It happens, it's part of life. It doesn't always mean that they are just giving up on life. Say you walk out onto the street, get hit by a bus and are killed instantly. Does that mean you're giving up on life or you were just in the wrong place, at the wrong time and your injuries are too extensive for you to live? Anywho, I didn't get a serious vibe off of musicalstar's post. More of a, "Hey Mimi dying is a tired subject, let's talk about Roger now!" vibe.
~~~Amy~~~
|
BaronSabato
|
Haha, yeah. You make a good point, DramaRobin.
Anyway, this topic has always been an issue and it seems like you either think Mimi should die or you don't and there's nothing anyone can say to change that.
It's somewhat like politics. You're either Republican or you ain't, and no-one who isn't will change over to the Dark Side.
|
Fontinau
|
| BaronSabato wrote: |
It's somewhat like politics. You're either Republican or you ain't, and no-one who isn't will change over to the Dark Side. |
Personally, I like to think there is at least a chance of convincing people to change their political beliefs. A world where everyone stubbornly clings to one ideology and never listens to any other is a depressing prospect.
|
musicalstar
|
| DramaRobin2002 wrote: | | Anywho, I didn't get a serious vibe off of musicalstar's post. More of a, "Hey Mimi dying is a tired subject, let's talk about Roger now!" vibe. |
Yesh! I was just kidding. If I said Maureen, maybe it would have been understood better?
| BaronSabato wrote: | | It's somewhat like politics. You're either Republican or you ain't, and no-one who isn't will change over to the Dark Side. |
Uh...no. That's not true. People can change from either side, Republican to Democrat, and vice versa.
|
BaronSabato
|
| BaronSabato wrote: | | It's somewhat like politics. You're either Republican or you ain't, and no-one who isn't will change over to the Dark Side. |
| musicalstar wrote: | | Uh...no. That's not true. People can change from either side, Republican to Democrat, and vice versa. |
Yes, I was being facetious.
Note the reference to Republicans being "the Dark Side".
|
Fontinau
|
| BaronSabato wrote: |
Yes, I was being facetious.
Note the reference to Republicans being "the Dark Side". |
What's so facetious about that? 
|
musicalstar
|
You KNOW that I'm posting in this thread, honey, didn't you?
|
drenchedinwine
|
well, if mimi does not die at the end, i feel that it would have been better if there was a longer time gap in between her "death" and her resurrection, because as it is, i feel like it is too sudden. You don't have enough time for the death to REALLY impact you or for it to sink in, before she's all patched and singing again.
But honestly, I am still glad that she lived. 2 lovable main character deaths in 1 act is a little harsh
and ouch, i don't want to imagine what would happen to poor roger if she died lol. i mean, he had just gotten out of withdrawal BECAUSE of her, and he'd probably just lock himself into his apartment for the rest of his life afterwards if she died, which would defeat the whole purpose. Because, since she resurrects, he finally gets converted to the "No Day But Today" way of life, because he can live that way WITH HER and finally realizes how precious their love is. I can't imagine him going out and frolicking like a nice bohemian enjoying the "No day but today" life, if she had died.
|
Fontinau
|
| drenchedinwine wrote: | | 2 lovable main character deaths in 1 act is a little harsh |
Pfff. That's nothing. Look at Shakespeare - the man killed entire families in the space of one scene.
|
ChingLing
|
I hope I'm not just reiterating what's already been said, but the way I see it, Mimi's not really coming 'back to life'. She has AIDS, she's been on the street, she's dying. Just because she's awake and talking doesn't mean she automatically will have a long life. I know this is repeating, but I, too see it as a wake up call.
Then again, if you really want to be cynical, you can say that Mimi revives because the fever gives her energy, and Maureen's line 'Her fever's breaking' is just wishful thinking, and if the show went on a bit longer Mimi would die for good.
|
kakoforever
|
I'm a bit of a sap as well. I always feel all fuzzy inside when Mimi comes back to life, but it does seem kind of cliched. Its this heart-wrenching death scene followed by Mark's "Your Eyes"........and all of the sudden....Ta-da! Mimi lives and starts singing. At least for me, it all happens too fast. When I saw the show (Before I got the CD and learned all the words), I was like "uh wait........so she's ok now?" I think it would have been more effective if they had made the transition into "No Day" a little slower and less key-changing happiness.
|
Mark Cohen
|
Roger sings Your Eyes.
|
elske1
|
Hello evrybody. I'm Elske and i'm new here. I'm from hallond so my English isn;t that good. I read something about the dutch RENT. I don't realy like that version. Well yes the dutch mimi is great, and so is collins. But roger and mark are absolutely not in my opinion. The cd is great to here. But the director did some very weird things with the show. For example Angel isn't a drag queen anymore or how you will call it. Bu t mimi doesn't die I thought. She is still singening the final. And I can't remeber seeieng her die. I do'nt think she did actually.
But I don't like the dutch version at all. It is very chaotic. People how see it for the first time don't have a clue about the story. The cast walks around in the smae cotumes all the time. And Angels dies and that's it. There isn't realy some thing as a funeral. Nobady says something about him. His part in the show is al lot smaller than in America. But I like rent in America. It's really one of my favorite musicals.
Elske
|
Roger's Chica
|
| DramaRobin2002 wrote: | Anyway, that being said I think from an artistic point of view it would be more realistic for Mimi to have died or at least been weaker coming back.
~~~Amy~~~ |
I dunno... I saw the show last night and she seemed pretty weak coming back. (Then again, it does depend on the actress' interpretation.) Mimi isn't doing big belting, she can say her (not incredibly well-written, I admit) lines while being held up by Roger... she only sings a couple of solo lines WITH Roger and then she's supported by him for the rest of the play.
Until she's not her character anymore. Then she gets to run up and bow and do as she pleases.
|
musicluvr77
|
The point of Rent is that life is unpredictable, and that love is the strongest force on Earth, because that's what brought Mimi back. thats what i believe.
|
La Boheme
|
| musicluvr77 wrote: | | The point of Rent is that life is unpredictable, and that love is the strongest force on Earth, because that's what brought Mimi back. thats what i believe. |
I don't even know where to start.
That is the most riduculous, nonsensical thing anyone has ever said. And believe me, you've had some stiff competition around here.
Go away. Get some brains. Don't come back.
|
musicluvr77
|
La Boheme, you should get some brains and try reading. On the inside of the CD booklet, it says at the end of the summary:
" Moments later, however, she returns, with stories of a warm white light and Angel steering her back to life ( Finale B). Celebrating the wonder of life's terrible uncertainty, the community re-affirms love as the strongest force we know, acknowledging there is always, " No day but today".
Why are you even posting in a Rent forum if you dont even know the musical?
|
Loppy Poo
|
| musicluvr77 wrote: | La Boheme, you should get some brains and try reading. On the inside of the CD booklet, it says at the end of the summary:
" Moments later, however, she returns, with stories of a warm white light and Angel steering her back to life ( Finale B). Celebrating the wonder of life's terrible uncertainty, the community re-affirms love as the strongest force we know, acknowledging there is always, " No day but today".
Why are you even posting in a Rent forum if you dont even know the musical? |
Oh, honey, I almost feel bad for you
First of all, the idea that YOU are telling HER to get a brain, is laughable. She is one of the smartest posters on this board. She's also one of the most knowledgable. I have seen little to prove that you will ever fall into either of those categories. Don't worry, it's a exclusive little group of smart people we have here. You'll have plenty of company at the bottom of the totem pole.
Here's some advice since you're new and all: There are some people on here that it's best not to debate with. That is because we will always win. La Boheme is one of them. I would drop this now, while you still have a chance.
As for Mimi, killing her off was a bad idea. As the critics have pointed out, this show glosses over the horrors of AIDS. Mimi should have died. Intelligent theatre goers can handle the fact that life sucks sometimes. Some of the best shows end with people dying.
|
La Boheme
|
| musicluvr77 wrote: | La Boheme, you should get some brains and try reading. On the inside of the CD booklet, it says at the end of the summary:
" Moments later, however, she returns, with stories of a warm white light and Angel steering her back to life ( Finale B). Celebrating the wonder of life's terrible uncertainty, the community re-affirms love as the strongest force we know, acknowledging there is always, " No day but today".
Why are you even posting in a Rent forum if you dont even know the musical? |
Thanks darling, but I know what it says on the inside of the CD booklet.
That does not mean that 'uncertainty' and 'love is the strongest force on earth' is the point of the show.
'No day but today' is the point of the show, in my humble, and clearly brainless opinion. Uncertainty is an aspect of it, as is love.
In no way are either of these two things 'the point of the show'. In my opinion, the point of 'no day but today' would have hit a lot harder if Mimi had died, and Roger had been forced to confront the fact he didn't value love, or contemplate lifes uncertainty.
Unless of course, you're a righteous, rude, teenager who can't see past the end of her nose, and hasn't used her brain to comprehend anything more complicated than 'Dawsons Creek'. In that case, I suppose what you've mentioned would be what they took from it.
Loppy, thanks for the compliment. But musicluvr, feel free to continue this debate if you wish, its rather entertaining.
|
Megan the Phantom Girlie
|
The theme of the show is to live like it's your last day on Earth because it just might be. In the end, fate decides to give Mimi another shot. "No Day But Today" doesn't mean "you will die tomorrow! no escape!"
I'm okay with her living. I just wish it was more subtle. It's too abrupt.
|
YaYfOrCoOkIeS
|
No, she should have eaten cookies!!!!
WWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
|
SilverTimotei
|
| Megan the Phantom Girlie wrote: |
I'm okay with her living. I just wish it was more subtle. It's too abrupt. |
It's very abrupt, and cheesy, and silly, and kind of ruins the end for me a little. I used to be on the "I'm glad she lived" side, but now I'm loving how the Dutch did it. She died, and she didn't come back.
|
aNGie_BaBY
|
well i dont know...
i think the argument about life is a fair comment... i think alot of the time in shows death gets the message across (i have always said Maria should die in West Side Story, as in Romeo and Juliet, i think the ending was spot on) however in RENT, i think Angel gets that message across in his death. Mimi's reference to Angel when she comes back to life kind of makes it all fit together well, they learned the importance of life from the loss of anothers.
lol what a touching discussion this is becoming..
|
aNGie_BaBY
|
| Loppy Poo wrote: |
As for Mimi, killing her off was a bad idea. As the critics have pointed out, this show glosses over the horrors of AIDS. Mimi should have died. Intelligent theatre goers can handle the fact that life sucks sometimes. Some of the best shows end with people dying. |
oh hold on.... now im really unsure... good point
|
elske1
|
In the Dutch version she did not die. Not at all. I hev seen it, I live in Holland. She does not come back. At the end she sings with roger aleen maar nu alleen maar wij, geen schuld, geen spijt, je tijd is zo voorbij geen ander pad geen nieuwe vraag, alleen maar vandaag.
It is excactly like the american version. She does not die, I already said that I think on this forum. but why do you think she died in the Dutch version?
Elske
|
