Luc
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MTV Movie Awards...so, Depp won for "Best Villain" with Sweeney Todd.
I don't think this character should be nominated at all. Depp deserves an award, but I personally didn't see him as a villain. Call me crazy, but I think the villain is Lovett.
Discuss.
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Sweeney Hyde
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This is the general consensus from what all I've read.
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EponineMNFF
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I can totally see how Mrs. Lovett is the villain, but I would say that most audience members leave considering Judge Turpin to be the villain. Even though Sweeney's a bit off, we're still rooting for him.
<.< Or I was at least. >.> <.< >.>
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Vice
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It's all a manner of view points. I, personally, think that the Judge is the villain of the piece.
Sweeney's an anti-hero, if he's able to be catagorized at all.
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dolbinau
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I really saw Depp's character in the film as very villainous, much more so than the impression I get from the filmed stage productions.
In the scene where he killed Pirelli and the Judge - especially the latter- all I could think was how evil he was. And then, of course, he killed Lovett.
Lovett wasn't 'evil', IMO, she just told a 'small' lie, and she did have a point - Lucy was crazy.
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Dvarg
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| dolbinau wrote: | | Lovett wasn't 'evil', IMO, she just told a 'small' lie, and she did have a point - Lucy was crazy. |
Uhm, huh?
Lovet is (as far as I'm aware) the most amoral and frightening character in musical theatre. her total lack of any kind of empathy, save for herself and materialistic gains surely must creep anyone out?
It is also why I argy she's a brilliant and wonderfully subtle charicature of capitalism, which has no other purpose than increasing itself.
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dolbinau
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| Quote: | | Lovet is (as far as I'm aware) the most amoral and frightening character in musical theatre. her total lack of any kind of empathy, save for herself and materialistic gains surely must creep anyone out? |
She said Lucy was dead so she could have Sweeney for herself, How is that frightening?
Unless you mean the pies, well, Sweeney was equally to blame - he was the one that killed the people!
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Dvarg
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| dolbinau wrote: | She said Lucy was dead so she could have Sweeney for herself, How is that frightening?
Unless you mean the pies, well, Sweeney was equally to blame - he was the one that killed the people! |
Eh, are you familiar with the piece at all?
From the moment she enters the stage, we are made aware she's a total psychopath completely void of empathy. How can that be not frightening? Particulary when she hides that fact behind the mask of a cosy, harmless middleage woman with a funny hairdo?
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Patrick
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| Dvarg wrote: | | dolbinau wrote: | She said Lucy was dead so she could have Sweeney for herself, How is that frightening?
Unless you mean the pies, well, Sweeney was equally to blame - he was the one that killed the people! |
Eh, are you familiar with the piece at all?
From the moment she enters the stage, we are made aware she's a total psychopath completely void of empathy. How can that be not frightening? Particulary when she hides that fact behind the mask of a cosy, harmless middleage woman with a funny hairdo? |
umm...yes and no.
I mean, HBC and Johnny completely reinterpretted and recreated the characters and thats what MTV was judging. I think HBC portrayed her as less villainous and Johnny was more so...compared to other casts anyway.
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Mistress
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I agree...HBC was a Lovett one could sympathize with much more easily than any stage, Lovett, and Depp emphasized the the fact that revenge turned him more and more merciless until it was the only thing on his mind even overpowering thoughts of his wiife and daughter.
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Salome
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Lovett is the villian of the piece. but Turpin is a villian as well but not antagonist.
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Dvarg
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Hm... Exactly what are your opinions on motivations and characterisations in this play? And what do you think it's about?
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sopranodespair
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I think the villain is the Judge. But pretty much all the characters are sinister.
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dolbinau
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| Dvarg wrote: | | Hm... Exactly what are your opinions on motivations and characterisations in this play? And what do you think it's about? |
IMO the movie is a little different than the stage musical[only based off recordings/DVDs though] persona wise of the characters etc..and this is what the award was based off..
Are you saying you thought HBC was 'evil' the whole time :-/? I just don't see why, there is nothing more 'evil' than killing 10+ people; I doubt Lovett deliberately 'planned' to manipulate/make Sweeney kill those people for her gain, It's just the circumstances arose. I know she wasn't 'perfect' and there is almost a complete absence of Morals, I'm just saying that I don't feel she is as 'evil' as Sweeney was at all.
| Quote: | | From the moment she enters the stage, we are made aware she's a total psychopath completely void of empathy |
Isn't this a bit over the top? She had some foul business practices in The Worst Pies In London and seemed to be suffering financially...Where can you get the impression she is a 'total psychopathic' just from this song? (her entrance)
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Joshua
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| dolbinau wrote: | | I doubt Lovett deliberately 'planned' to manipulate/make Sweeney kill those people for her gain, It's just the circumstances arose. I know she wasn't 'perfect' and there is almost a complete absence of Morals, I'm just saying that I don't feel she is as 'evil' as Sweeney was at all. |
Oh but she did deliberately plan this whole thing. That's why she is the villain. She knew exactly what she was doing from the start. She kept the little fact about Lucy from him to let his anger grow, she implanted little ideas into his head, she is the reason he did what he did -- and all for what? I think it all comes down to a) money and b) she is a psychopath so she has to do what she is doing because she is sick in the head.
| Quote: | | From the moment she enters the stage, we are made aware she's a total psychopath completely void of empathy |
Isn't this a bit over the top? She had some foul business practices in The Worst Pies In London and seemed to be suffering financially...Where can you get the impression she is a 'total psychopathic' just from this song? (her entrance)[/quote]
What foul business practices in The Worst Pies in London?
And as to her being a total psychopath from when we first see her, she is. After Worst Pies, we go right into her realizing who he is, but failing to tell him of Lucy and then she gives him the razors and starts implanting ideas from there. If that's not psychopathic, I don't know what is.
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sopranodespair
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Mrs. Lovett is such a complicated character. But I do think that Sweeney is evil, too! Mrs. Lovett didn't technically make him do anything.
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Salome
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wrong. Sweeney was not evil. he was a good man who was sent to jail for something he didnt do. becuase turpin lusted after his wife.
Lovett played on his anger to gain her own rewards.
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Mungojerrie_rt
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I think Todd was driven to insanity by what happened.
Mrs. Lovett comits what is generally called 'crimes of passion.'
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Luc
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| Salome wrote: | | wrong. Sweeney was not evil. he was a good man who was sent to jail for something he didnt do. becuase turpin lusted after his wife. |
I agree with this to an extent. He had to be at least a little bit evil.
To quote Legally Blonde, "Happy people just don't kill other people!"
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nabla
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It's hard to choose a main villain since they're all fairly morally reprehensible, However if i had to pick just one i would say the Judge since he starts off the sequence of events, and is reponsible for turning Todd evil.
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Dvarg
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| dolbinau wrote: | | I doubt Lovett deliberately 'planned' to manipulate/make Sweeney kill those people for her gain, It's just the circumstances arose. |
Well, grabbing that opportunity without the slightest qualm is exactly what defines the personality of Lovett.
| dolbinau wrote: | | Isn't this a bit over the top? She had some foul business practices in The Worst Pies In London and seemed to be suffering financially...Where can you get the impression she is a 'total psychopathic' just from this song? (her entrance) |
Uhm, because it's witten into the song (melodically, lyrically and not at least rythmically) how whimsically insane she is? Of course it's over the top. Lovett is over the top.
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dolbinau
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| Quote: | | Oh but she did deliberately plan this whole thing. That's why she is the villain. She knew exactly what she was doing from the start. She kept the little fact about Lucy from him to let his anger grow, she implanted little ideas into his head, she is the reason he did what he did -- and all for what? I think it all comes down to a) money and b) she is a psychopath so she has to do what she is doing because she is sick in the head. |
If you believe this then I can understand how evil she really is, BUT, I personally think this is a bit far fetched as the events were so circumstantial it would be hard to plan. The reasons I believe the motivation is her love for him is in the lyrics in "Poor Thing" and "My Friends"
"There was a barber and his wife, and he was beautiful"
"If you only knew Mr Todd, Oo Mr Todd you're warm in my hand" "You've come home, always had a fondness for you I did"
Plus her enthusiasm to be married in "By the Sea" and in the Final Scene after he finds out she 'lied' to him.
| Quote: | | What foul business practices in The Worst Pies in London? |
Hygiene? Quality of Food?
| Quote: | | wrong. Sweeney was not evil. he was a good man who was sent to jail for something he didnt do. becuase turpin lusted after his wife. |
If killing 10+ people isn't evil then I don't know what is. They were also all (besides one, Pirelli) pre-meditated - not out of anger or spur of the moment.
| Quote: | | Uhm, because it's witten into the song (melodically, lyrically and not at least rythmically) how whimsically insane she is? Of course it's over the top. Lovett is over the top. |
Specific examples? I do feel this is unsubstantiated and possibly a personal interpretation rather than 'definitive'.
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Dvarg
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| dolbinau wrote: | | Specific examples? I do feel this is unsubstantiated and possibly a personal interpretation rather than 'definitive'. |
I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of subtext. The entire song oozes of it. I can't label specific examples of musical and rythmical effects, as I'm not a musicologist, but the tune and rythm is logical, yet all over the place - an equivalent to Lovett's ethics.
Lyrically she gives herself away immediately with "I thought you was a ghost", which obviously (if you know your Sondheim) means she has already recognised Benjamin Baker, and her mean little clockwork mind has started ticking. The entire song is full of subtle clues like that. It's the point of it, besides being a damn fun song. It's actually what makes it fun.
| dolbinau wrote: | | If killing 10+ people isn't evil then I don't know what is. They were also all (besides one, Pirelli) pre-meditated - not out of anger. |
Have you noticed a nice little ditty entiteled "Epiphany"?
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