[Monsieur D'Arque]

Is Mrs. Lovett a puppet-master? I've heard it said several times that she's the truly evil presence in Sweeney Todd, doing anything she can to bend Sweeney to her will. Angela Lansbury epitomizes this Lovett.

I've always simply believed that, far from being a mastermind, she's simply a solipsist- nothing but herself and her goals is real to her. Like Nietzche and Ayn Rand, her ends justify her means. She has no devious plot, but things like robbing the dead, misleading a troubled man, and even coercing the town into cannibalism are simply "business" to her. This is Helena Bonham Carter's Lovett.

Consider the different interpretations of the "locking Toby in" scene. Angela lures him in with tenderness, then traps him ruthlessly. Helena has obvious regret for what she does to the child, but does it anyway because it's him or her that time, and Lovett has to stay safe.

[operadiva7]

I agree with you. Also, with Angela, her love for Mr. Todd was very subdued, arguable even. With Helena it was OBVIOUS and written all over her face in near every scene. Just another reason I love her.

[Jester-Jester Johnson]

Judy kaye's Lovett is another good example as a woman who will do whatever necessary for personal gain.

[Vichysois]

I feel that Mrs. Lovett as written is a combination of the two types you describe...with a little more weight lent to the profile you favor.

I also feel that calling her "evil" is dismissive, especially in Sweeney Todd which is a sophisticated social commentary. Lovett's got tinges of Machiavelli, yet she's also a caricature of a proletarian struggle as understood by Marxists. Plus she's wrestling with being a widow and having no children, not a respectable position. Also important is that while she's an enabler to Sweeney's murders, she doesn't have to coax him into killing. He already has that latent bloodlust. (Yes, she leads Sweeney to believe that Lucy's dead, but that doesn't change that Sweeney already had a murderous rage. If he had known Lucy was alive, it's not as if he would have settled down. This is part of the tragic arc...the end of the play is set in motion even before the action begins).

It is prudent to say that she is selfish, and that her actions throughout the play merely spring from that. But that merits more explanation.

[Monsieur D'Arque]

Well you've brought up an interesting point there- the Marxist commentary.

Is Sweeney Todd genuinely Marxist commentary, or is it a sublime example of the modern Shakespearean revenge tragedy? According to Sondheim and Christopher Bond, in the introduction to the Sweeney Todd annotated libretto, the Marxist read was tacked on by Hal Prince for the original production, while neither of them cared much for it. This is why the Marxist imagery and symbolism has largely disappeared from subsequent major productions of the show, including Sondheim's personally-approved film version, which pared it down to its roots in tragedy and Grand Guignol.

[Vichysois]

To a certain extent that's a debate in literary dramatic criticism: Can the author of a work truly dictate which are the appropriate readings of the text? That is, can we say that Sweeney Todd can't be read from a Marxist critical perspective because Sondheim and Bond don't like it?

I happen to believe that the text exists separately from the author as it is published. But still, the Marxist stuff to me serves better as an undercurrent to the narrative and meat of Sweeney Todd, which is more prominently the revenge tragedy.

[Monsieur D'Arque]

What I mean is, is the Marxism a "read" to the text, or is the whole text itself an allegory for such?

[Vichysois]

I'd favor it as a read, especially considering the multi-tiered narrative.

[le_moofin]

[Monsieur D'Arque]

I understand that it CAN be read as such, but I was asking if we thought it was integral.

Case in point- two examples.

A: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe may be a fantasy novel on its surface, but beneath all that, it is an allegory for Christian moral struggles and the tenacity of belief and good. It is nearly impossible to read the novel without this undercurrent informing the plot.

B: The Wizard of Oz has ambiguously been seen as an allegory for several things, most notably the Populist movement in American politics and the burgeoning field of psychology. However, none of these are definitively accepted reads, and you choose them from the story at your own perspective. On its own, the story is "Just a story."

Which of these is Sweeney Todd?

[ActingDude17]

[le_moofin]

[Vichysois]

Monsieur D'Arque, I'd say it's not integral to the story. The Marxist perspective enriches the story, but I feel the story as revenge tragedy suffices enough by itself. Sorry for not being clear.

[ActingDude17]

[Moxie Music]

In the production my theatre group are performing (at the end of the month...yay!) the director discussed with us right at the beginning of rehearsals how she wanted Mrs Lovett to be portrayed. She wants the audience to think that Mrs Lovett is 'the puppet master'.

The way the actress has developed the character does portray this well enough, especially during 'A little Priest' and also in 'Not while I'm around', she displays a certain ammount of well hidden irritation for Toby's protest against Mr Todd.

But i can't deny in this production that she truly and deeply loves Sweeney. Her mannerisms far exceed the haughty, prim and proper air she tries to uphold. I don't know much about Marxist theory or about the philosophers you mention, so I am just posting my opinion based on the particular produciton I am experiencing at the moment.

I did enjoy both Lansbury and HBC in the Lovett role, however I think the character has a large enough scope to be played in many different ways. Personally I felt HBC was a little too softly spoken for my liking. Lansbury played a vulgar, brash Mrs Lovett whereas Debbie, the Lady who I speak of above has chosen to become a more sensible, well spoken(as well spoken as a victorian London pie maker can be) and organised figure. She comes across as completative and calm and genuinely warm towards Todd. Her 'puppet mastery' is for the audience alone.