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dolbinau

Love Never dies announced etc.. SAMPLE TRACK

http://loveneverdies.com/

Sample track:

http://cloudfront.loveneverdies.com/ConeyIslandWaltz.mp3
kozafluitmusique

Sounds pretty but WHY!
LadyOfTheLake

I actually liked the 'sample track.' You can hear the 'carnival-esque' sounds of Coney Island, as well as the more 'classical-esque' tones representing the Phantom. And at some points, you could hear bits that resembled the Phantom Oveture, which I appreciated.

Overall, very interesting! I thought it was quite good.
Peritombry

I really like what I've heard so far. Very Happy
Jester-Jester Johnson

So do I.
Yakko

As much as I hate to admit it.....I really like it...... Evil or Very Mad
operafantomet

I'm a bit underwhelmed with what I've heard so far. The music is pretty, but not memorable (and very movie soundtrack in style), and the lyrics are pretty bad...

I hope there's more exciting stuff in store! The music was the one thing I looked forward to.
howglorygoes

Maybe it's just the shared sugary over-orchestration but this sounds to me exactly like Sunset Blvd...
Yakko

howglorygoes wrote:
Maybe it's just the shared sugary over-orchestration but this sounds to me exactly like Sunset Blvd...



Everyone I know has said this!
kozafluitmusique

Yakko wrote:
howglorygoes wrote:
Maybe it's just the shared sugary over-orchestration but this sounds to me exactly like Sunset Blvd...



Everyone I know has said this!


...I just realized that....wow.
Mungojerrie_rt

Interesting that they've chosen Australia to be third, according to the website.

London in February, New York in November, and Australia 2011.
High-baritonne

howglorygoes wrote:
Maybe it's just the shared sugary over-orchestration but this sounds to me exactly like Sunset Blvd...


Well, in that case I bet I'm going to love this! Sunset BLVD. is my favorite Andrew Lloyd Webber show, so I'm hoping for more music like this!
Jekkienumber24601

Broadway.com has a music video for a new song that the phantom sings called "till I hear you sing"
RainbowJude

LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

For anyone who's interested, the music videos that goes with the "Till I Hear You Sing (Once More)" and the "Coney Island Waltz" are available on YouTube. They're much easier to view there than on the Love Never Dies site.

Anyway, regarding "Till I Hear You Sing" - well, it's better than "Music of the Night". Silenced

I suppose it's meant to be Love Never Dies' equivalent of that song from The Phantom of the Opera. It's very much in the adult contemporary vein of the more poppy Josh Groban stuff like "You Raise Me Up", "The Prayer" or "You're Still You" and I don't think its particularly memorable and the lyrics tend toward the banal.

The more interesting "Coney Island Waltz" recalls the "Carousel Waltz" - in its attempt to set a tone for the show, though it appears to be nowhere near as extensive or complex - and the musical styling of parts of Ragtime, perhaps specifically in "New Music", more than Sunset Boulevard for me. I wonder how the music will be used dramatically.

Later days
David
Damask and Dark

Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

RainbowJude wrote:
For anyone who's interested, the music videos that goes with the "Till I Hear You Sing (Once More)" and the "Coney Island Waltz" are available on YouTube. They're much easier to view there than on the Love Never Dies site.

Anyway, regarding "Till I Hear You Sing" - well, it's better than "Music of the Night". Silenced

I suppose it's meant to be Love Never Dies' equivalent of that song from The Phantom of the Opera. It's very much in the adult contemporary vein of the more poppy Josh Groban stuff like "You Raise Me Up", "The Prayer" or "You're Still You" and I don't think its particularly memorable and the lyrics tend toward the banal.

The more interesting "Coney Island Waltz" recalls the "Carousel Waltz" - in its attempt to set a tone for the show, though it appears to be nowhere near as extensive or complex - and the musical styling of parts of Ragtime, perhaps specifically in "New Music", more than Sunset Boulevard for me. I wonder how the music will be used dramatically.

Later days
David



Hahaha, I clicked on the links without reading the rest of your post, and I thought the first one sounded like a Josh Groban song too. Wink Do you really think it's better than "Music of the Night", though? It seems to me that "Music of the Night" has stronger lyrics; apart from the title line, "Till I Hear You Sing" has rather generic lyrics that could be inserted into any song in any show where one character misses his or her significant other, whereas "Music of the Night" seems at least better tailored to the character.

Also, did I miss something, or what has happened to the deformed half of the Phantom's face?
RainbowJude

Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

Damask and Dark wrote:
Do you really think it's better than "Music of the Night", though? ... "Music of the Night" seems at least better tailored to the character.

Well it's about choosing the lesser of two evils, isn't it? "Music of the Night" is one of the most boring songs ever written for the musical theatre. It's five minutes of stage time where the action of the show stops dead in its tracks. If it's tailored to the character of the Phantom, the Phantom must very a very boring chap indeed with very little to offer. Anyway, in this new song the significant other at the very least has to be a singer, which is as generic as "Music of the Night" being about a composer.

Later days
David
kozafluitmusique

...I thought this was supposed to be bad.

Shocked
Mungojerrie_rt

Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

RainbowJude wrote:
Damask and Dark wrote:
Do you really think it's better than "Music of the Night", though? ... "Music of the Night" seems at least better tailored to the character.

Well it's about choosing the lesser of two evils, isn't it? "Music of the Night" is one of the most boring songs ever written for the musical theatre. It's five minutes of stage time where the action of the show stops dead in its tracks. If it's tailored to the character of the Phantom, the Phantom must very a very boring chap indeed with very little to offer. Anyway, in this new song the significant other at the very least has to be a singer, which is as generic as "Music of the Night" being about a composer.

Later days
David


Didn't the tune for Music of the Night come from a song written for Sarah Brightman to sing called Married Man with lyrics by Trevor Nunn?

At any rate, the new song (I'm assuming 'Till' was your typo, hopefully they at least spell the title of the song right...) is entirely forgettable.

(For the record, I think All I Ask Of You is even worse than Music of the Night).
howglorygoes

'Till I Hear You Sing' is practically self-parody!
LOL at the classic ALW orchestral/vocal 'explosion' (at 2:26 on the video linked above).
Jekkienumber24601

I enjoy it actually. However it seems Ramin is bringing in some Gerard Butlerisms to make the Phantom sound sexier. Which we all know did not work. It's making me upset that he's whispering when he could be singing.
nabla

From a critical perspective it's not great no, but i sort of can't help.... liking it some, that's my reaction to a lot of ALW shows though, god knows why, lol
dolbinau

I've played "Till I hear you sing" 31 times and I'm still not over it. I agree there is something about it..even though it IS bad, I mean I HATE the lyrics especially "sometimes at nighttime", I think it reads like a child is saying it. And you could easily replace "Till I hear you sing" with, "Till I see your face", "Till I hear your voice", "Till I see your smile"...your [enter any descriptive word of a [presumable, female, but let's leave it open and say male too Razz].

But meh.
Mistress

wow...I'm finging it hard to pay much attention to the orchestrations and lyrics because Karimloo's voice has my total undivided attention...but he dies sound like Josh Groban at some parts
Fantine

Even though I like 'Till I hear...' I still can't believe this is happening.
What saddens me most is that Ramin doens't really sound like Ramin in most parts. Like you said with the breathy Gerard Butler voice... Nah.
Jekkienumber24601

I like the melody so much that I'm really not noticing the bad lyrics...kinda like the original Phantom Smile
Yakko

What I'm going to do is pretend that ALW died of a freak accident. That way I can ignore Love Never Dies.
Pastiche

Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

RainbowJude wrote:
Damask and Dark wrote:
Do you really think it's better than "Music of the Night", though? ... "Music of the Night" seems at least better tailored to the character.

Well it's about choosing the lesser of two evils, isn't it? "Music of the Night" is one of the most boring songs ever written for the musical theatre. It's five minutes of stage time where the action of the show stops dead in its tracks. If it's tailored to the character of the Phantom, the Phantom must very a very boring chap indeed with very little to offer.



In *your* opinion.

As well as characterizing the Phantom, it's about seduction, seduction done mainly through music. That's a more original and novel concept than the "I WISH I COULD . . . (hear you sing agaiin) (see you again) (touch you again) (hold you again) etc. song that the sequel song is. It takes an exceptional "I WISH I COULD" song to avoid being a cliche. I don't think "Til I Hear You Sing Once More" is that exceptional.

It is a difficult song to sing well and has been used by countless tenors and some baritones to test their mettle or show that they do have the chops to sing it.

"Music of the Night" does a lot musically besides just "stop the show." This analysis is by John Snelson, music scholar, who wrote a biography of ALW, analyzing the music.



Quote:
Anyway, in this new song the significant other at the very least has to be a singer, which is as generic as "Music of the Night" being about a composer.

Later days
David


The new song might be generic; "Music of the Night" is not.

I'm thinking that there will be little mysterious or mystical about the Phantom in the sequel. I'm just guessing from what we know now, but I have a feeling that he will be stripped of these qualities as was the Phantom in the 2004 film and made into a kind of "ordinary guy" fellow with a few, uh, quirks. Although "ordinary guys" don't have automaton girlfriends, but there is a market for inflatable dolls.
Mungojerrie_rt

Funny how this musical summary of this character was written for a woman to sing about how she should stop seeing this married man.

Music of the night would work better if it was shorter. Simply, it goes too long without doing anything, nor having the tune liveliness or staging to make it work. The same song half the length would work much better.
RainbowJude

Re: "Music of the Night"

Pastiche wrote:
"Music of the Night" does a lot musically besides just "stop the show." This analysis is by John Snelson, music scholar, who wrote a biography of ALW, analyzing the music.

"Music of the Night" is a terrible piece of dramaturgy, the music is plagiarised in part and the song was not even composed originally for The Phantom of the Opera. It is boring and repetitive and does not "stop the show", but it does stop the action of the show and puts any audience member with a modicum of intelligence to sleep. For what is achieves dramatically, it is worth the time used by one verse and chorus - if that. Who cares if some middle of the road academic stoops to please the "phans"?

Later days
David
Pastiche

My, my. Such dislike of a song that is a high point in the show for so many people (fans and non-fans alike) over the years---but, of course, one or both of you can come back with popularity-isn't-quality argument.

I don't have access to the song as it was written originally as "A Married Man," but does MJ know that the arrangement as well as the words were not changed to fit the new show?

R.J., you list your primary role as "director," so your opinion, if you are a theatrical director, doesn't just come out of left field, but it is still just *your* opinion. Back to the "popularity" thang, you must think, and I can't prove you wrong or right, that most audience members watching The Phantom of the Opera must not have a modicum of intelligence. I've seen the show several times and have never seen anyone dozing off during "Music of the Night." ---But, then, I've probably never been in the same theater with you.

You like Sondheim and LaChiusa. Is it possible that you like very little that ALW has written and that your dislike of "Music of the Night" is just part of a larger antipathy toward its composer's work? Maybe not. You might be the soul of objectivity in your opinions of music.
Mungojerrie_rt

Interview with Webber about the song. States that it's the same orchestral tape.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBmUIjFsV64

The whole song with piano backing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1RQr7BZCSA&feature=related
Pastiche

Yes, it IS the same song with the same chords.

So? Smile

All I can say is that for me the song sounds much better sung by a good Phantom with the different lyrics. Sarah's "Married Man" version sounds choppy and sing-songy.

I don't think you'll find either many fans or many general audience members who share your dislike of the song, but you're entitled....
Mungojerrie_rt

You'll probably find a lot of people who are bored by the song.

I think the Married Man lyrics are better written, and the ups and down in the song suit Married Man and it's lyrics better.
Hans

Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
Funny how this musical summary of this character was written for a woman to sing about how she should stop seeing this married man.


Hehehe Smile

And, yes, the song lasts forever and doesn't do anything dramaturgically.
Pastiche

I yield the floor to the Sondheim fans who make up the largest body of those who find "Music of the Night" (and a lot of other ALW music) boring.
Mungojerrie_rt

Pastiche wrote:
I yield the floor to the Sondheim fans who make up the largest body of those who find "Music of the Night" (and a lot of other ALW music) boring.


Half of Sondheim bores me.
Hans

Pastiche wrote:
I yield the floor to the Sondheim fans who make up the largest body of those who find "Music of the Night" (and a lot of other ALW music) boring.


Do you think we find The Music Of The Night boring because we are SJS fans?
High-baritonne

I love the song, but I hate the fact that it is in a musical, because on it's own it is beautiful, within the show it's boring and unnecessary. My favorite composer is Stephen Sondheim, yet I thought "Music of the Night" was a badly written musical song even before I knew who Stephen Sondheim was.
Pastiche

Dvarg wrote:
Pastiche wrote:
I yield the floor to the Sondheim fans who make up the largest body of those who find "Music of the Night" (and a lot of other ALW music) boring.


Do you think we find The Music Of The Night boring because we are SJS fans?


No, not *because* you are Sondheim fans, but I've found that people who admire Sondheim a lot often dislike some or all of Andrew Lloyd Webber. They also tend to be very vocal about their distaste for "Aspects of ALW." They admire carefully crafted lyrics and sophisticated music and are sometimes annoyed that the simpler, melodic ALW music is so very popular.

This is a generalization, but a lot of posters on a number of boards, especially theater boards like Talkin' Broadway, are just this way.

Others like MungoJerry just seem to be easily bored. Wink
jcstar

Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

Damask and Dark wrote:
Also, did I miss something, or what has happened to the deformed half of the Phantom's face?


Um... you do understand that this was supposed to be just a performance of a song for the show... right? Of course he'll be deformed in the show. What does it matter for a press confrence/launch?

I like the song and the Waltz. I find this project a very interesting one.

Oh and didn't ALW say that Toronto would be the third city to stage it? I heard it was to be London, New York, Toronto then Austrailia

Andy.
Mungojerrie_rt

Well, the website didn't mention Toronto. I shall check again.
Pastiche

Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

[quote="jcstar"]
Damask and Dark wrote:


...Oh and didn't ALW say that Toronto would be the third city to stage it? I heard it was to be London, New York, Toronto then Austrailia

Andy.


Back in April, Broadway.com had an article that quoted the Daily Mail as saying, "...Shortly following the London premiere, productions of Love Never Dies will open at Toronto’s Royal Alexandra Theatre and in Shanghai, China. The Broadway production, which was originally announced for the fall of 2009, will then premiere in April 2010, likely featuring the cast from the Toronto production. It is still unclear which productions will feature Boggess and Karimloo. . . ."

http://www.broadway.com/Phantom-Sequel-to-Play-West-End-s-Adelphi-Theatre-Before-Bowing-on-Broadway/broadway_news/5024052


There were other similar articles, but as work on the sequel went on, plans changed.
Mungojerrie_rt

"Andrew Lloyd Webber’s long awaited new show will have its World Premiere in London at the Adelphi Theatre on Tuesday 9 March 2010 followed by New York on Thursday 11 November and in Australia in 2011."

That's the message now.
Mistress

I'm surprised they didn't keep TO...it would have been great to send Karimloo back home to us! XD
livemodernx3

I must admit, I was incredibly skeptical when I first heard about this show. One must admit, before a lot was let known about it, the plot did sound awful. But now that I know more, this show sounds like it will be truly special. Thanks for posting the links to the songs on youtube, I can't stop listening to "'Till I Hear You Sing."

I find it amazing that there are people who find "Music of the Night" boring. Out of all the songs in Phantom, while it isn't my favorite, I find it to be one of the least boring! Maybe its just the vocalist in me, but everytime I listen to it I listen for something different; breath support, pitch (as most usually do Wink ), and I love actually listening for the acting. Besides its length, which I do understand is a little long, what makes it boring to everyone else?
Orestes Fasting

"Till I Hear You Sing" sounds like Andrew Lloyd Webber was commissioned to write the music to an extra song for Maury Yeston's "Phantom."

Insipid verging on frightful lyrics, check. Defanged, mopey, prickly on the outside gooey on the inside Phantom, check. Songs that don't have a whole lot to say but repeat themselves just 'cause it's pretty, check. And instead of Yeston's music, which was pretty much the big redeeming feature of that version of Phantom, we get three and a half minutes of Andrew Lloyd Webber--who was apparently triple-doggy-dared to write a pop ballad without the use of a single melodic hook.

Seriously, I was at least expecting a trainwreck with pretty music for the Phantom sequel. I wasn't expecting something so forgettable that, in the middle of writing this post, I forgot how it went, searched for "Till I Hear Your Voice" on YouTube, then realized the error was because every time I try to remember this stupid song, I get that "I will hear your voice / and I'll see your brow" line from Yeston stuck in my head.
Hans

livemodernx3 wrote:
Besides its length, which I do understand is a little long, what makes it boring to everyone else?


Its lyrics are generic and boring, and it doesn't achieve anything dramaturgically or characterwise.
livemodernx3

Quote:
Its lyrics are generic and boring, and it doesn't achieve anything dramaturgically or characterwise.


I've never found the lyrics to be so boring, but you are correct in them being generic. But what then is an example of lyrics to you that are not generic or boring? I'm always curious to see how my tastes differ from other musical lovers! And while it may not achieve anything characterwise, it does usually flaunt the fact that the Phantom is a damned good vocalist. Wink
Pastiche

livemodernx3 wrote:
Quote:
Its lyrics are generic and boring, and it doesn't achieve anything dramaturgically or characterwise.


I've never found the lyrics to be so boring, but you are correct in them being generic.


"Generic,"meaning they could fit in another situation in another show easily?


In the song's history, it has made the rounds from being the tune to "A Married Man" meant for another situation, was performed at Sydmonton with changed lyrics, performed on the OLC and in the show with the lyrics changed somewhat once again (for the better, in my opinion), and there have been minor changes since then.

As it appears in the show, I think the lyrics fit that situation very well and would not fit in another show easily. The words tell of how darkness and music can release inhibitions, and that is just what the Phantom wants his music and the darkness to do for the girl he has brought down to his "Lair."

"Let your mind start a journey through a strange new world
Leave all thoughts of the world you knew before
Let your soul take you where you long to be
Only then can you belong to me..."

This isn't some generic lover singing a love song to his girl friend.

Also, the lyrics are more-than-average poetic, making considerable use of figurative language, if that counts for anything. I don't suppose it does for those who consider them generic and boring.
Hans

livemodernx3 wrote:
But what then is an example of lyrics to you that are not generic or boring?


Well, the song is obviously from a completely different context, but The British Admiral's part of Please, Hello is the most perfect set of lyrics I know:

Quote:
Hello, I come with letters from Her Majesty Victoria
Who, learning how you're trading now, sang "Hallelujah, Gloria!"
And sent me to convey to you her positive euphoria
As well as little gifts from Britain's various emporia.

Her letters do contain a few proposals to your Emperor
Which if, of course, he won't endorse, will put in her in a temper or,
More happily, should he agree, will serve to keep her placid, or
At least till I am followed by a permanent ambassador.

Her Majesty considers the arrangements to be tentative
Until we ship a proper diplomatic representative.
We don't foresee that you will be the least bit argumentative,
So please ignore the man-of-war we brought as a preventative.

Great Britain wishes her position clear and indisputable:
We're not amused at being used and therefore stand immutable.
And though you Japs are foxy chaps and damnably inscrutable —
Reviewing it from where we sit, the facts are irrefutable —
And thus, in short, a single port is patently unsuitable!

The British feel these latest dealings verge on immorality.
The element of precedent imperils our neutrality.
We're rather vexed, your giving extraterritoriality.
We must insist you offer this to every nationality!

One moment, please, I think that these assure us exclusivity
For Western ports and other sorts of maritime activity,
And if you mean to intervene, as is the Dutch proclivity,
We'll blow you nits to little bits, with suitable festivity.


Pastiche wrote:
"Generic,"meaning they could fit in another situation in another show easily?


More that the chosen words feel like standard phrases of MYSTERY and SEDUCTION and DARK ROMANCE rather than feeling like they belong to a real individual.
Pastiche

Dvarg wrote:
livemodernx3 wrote:
But what then is an example of lyrics to you that are not generic or boring?


Well, the song is obviously from a completely different context, but The British Admiral's part of Please, Hello is the most perfect set of lyrics I know:

Quote:
Hello, I come with letters from Her Majesty Victoria
Who, learning how you're trading now, sang "Hallelujah, Gloria!"
And sent me to convey to you her positive euphoria
As well as little gifts from Britain's various emporia.

Her letters do contain a few proposals to your Emperor
Which if, of course, he won't endorse, will put in her in a temper or,
More happily, should he agree, will serve to keep her placid, or
At least till I am followed by a permanent ambassador.

Her Majesty considers the arrangements to be tentative
Until we ship a proper diplomatic representative.
We don't foresee that you will be the least bit argumentative,
So please ignore the man-of-war we brought as a preventative.

Great Britain wishes her position clear and indisputable:
We're not amused at being used and therefore stand immutable.
And though you Japs are foxy chaps and damnably inscrutable —
Reviewing it from where we sit, the facts are irrefutable —
And thus, in short, a single port is patently unsuitable!

The British feel these latest dealings verge on immorality.
The element of precedent imperils our neutrality.
We're rather vexed, your giving extraterritoriality.
We must insist you offer this to every nationality!

One moment, please, I think that these assure us exclusivity
For Western ports and other sorts of maritime activity,
And if you mean to intervene, as is the Dutch proclivity,
We'll blow you nits to little bits, with suitable festivity.


Witty and clever...perfect? They are, of course from a completely different kind of song.

Pastiche wrote:
"Generic,"meaning they could fit in another situation in another show easily?


More that the chosen words feel like standard phrases of MYSTERY and SEDUCTION and DARK ROMANCE rather than feeling like they belong to a real individual.


Well, they don't mention a dark and stormy night. Wink

I think I've run across the phrase "darkest dreams" in other works of mystery or seduction or dark romance, and, of course, the idea of a "soaring sprit" isn't exactly original, but I don't think any of the phrases are standard phrases although they *feel* that way to you.

The words certainly suggest a character and situation of mystery, seduction, and dark romance. The situation and a character of that nature are common in such stories, but I don't feel the words and phrases are.
Pastiche

Hold everything. I think I might know one reason why you think the lyric you quoted is perfect. It is unique to the situation and the character and couldn't be used in any other situation by any other character in any other play, as is
Gilbert and Sulllivan's "Modern Major General."

You can probably imagine "Music of the Night" being sung by some other dark, romantic hero...a Heathcliff or a Dracula or whoever.

That might be possible if any other such hero was a musician. It is made clear both before he sings the song and afterward that the Phantom is a musician, a singing teacher, a composer, who performs briefly in his own opera.

"The Music of the Night," through words and music, demonstrates how music can "caress you," "possess you," and let "your fantasies unwind."

The lyric and the music and the blocking work together to the show--- and not just to tell---of the seductive power of music and darkness.

Perhaps you can think of another romantic hero that this song could fit, but I can't.
Mama Rose

RainbowJude wrote:
I suppose it's meant to be Love Never Dies' equivalent of that song from The Phantom of the Opera. It's very much in the adult contemporary vein of the more poppy Josh Groban stuff like "You Raise Me Up", "The Prayer" or "You're Still You" and I don't think its particularly memorable and the lyrics tend toward the banal.



The lyrics "tend" toward the banal? LOL!
RainbowJude

Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

RainbowJude wrote:
Anyway, regarding "Till I Hear You Sing" - well, it's better than "Music of the Night". Silenced

Damask and Dark wrote:
Do you really think it's better than "Music of the Night", though?

OK, maybe I was overhasty in my appraisal of the new song. I guess I made it sound like I liked it better that I do. It really is mediocre adult contemporary pop at best: the Phantom goes Josh Groban, and not nearly as well.

But that doesn't make "Music of the Night" a good piece of dramatic musical theatre writing by any means. I stick by every word I've said about it and although I'm terribly sorry to disappoint Pastiche in this regard, this has nothing to do with whatever my other "likes" in musical theatre might be.

RainbowJude wrote:
I suppose it's meant to be Love Never Dies' equivalent of that song from The Phantom of the Opera. It's very much in the adult contemporary vein of the more poppy Josh Groban stuff like "You Raise Me Up", "The Prayer" or "You're Still You" and I don't think its particularly memorable and the lyrics tend toward the banal.

Mama Rose wrote:
The lyrics "tend" toward the banal? LOL!

I was being diplomatic! Mr. Green

Later days
David
Hans

Pastiche wrote:
Hold everything. I think I might know one reason why you think the lyric you quoted is perfect. It is unique to the situation and the character and couldn't be used in any other situation by any other character in any other play, as is
Gilbert and Sulllivan's "Modern Major General."


That, and the rhyme scheme and language is so incredibly tight, inventive and witty; and it propels the idea of the song forward yet it never strays from the character and situation.

But this is the most perfect set of lyrics, imo. Any other example is pale in comparishion, so it's quite unfair.

Pastiche wrote:
That might be possible if any other such hero was a musician. It is made clear both before he sings the song and afterward that the Phantom is a musician, a singing teacher, a composer, who performs briefly in his own opera.


I think this is a somewhat superficial defence of the song "belonging to" the character. It's difficult to explain, but ideally (and I'm not saying it is easy by any means) a song should feel like it comes from the character in a more indirect way.

In really good songs, the identification does not come from the mentioning of the character's occupation and other direct allusions, but rather in the choice of words put in his or her mouth, for example.

Perhaps Hammerstein was the greatest lyricist in this regard, his characters use language that distinctly reflects their social background, view of life and shortcomings, without exactly pointing it out. That's why for example I often find those lyrics boring, because they reflects characters I have little in common with. But that's also why they are good.

livemodernx3 wrote:
[...] it does usually flaunt the fact that the Phantom is a damned good vocalist.


Haha, I think this is a main objection to the song. I really don't like songs to be a vehicle for showing off a voice. The voice should show off the text, not the other way around.
Pastiche

Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

RainbowJude wrote:

But that doesn't make "Music of the Night" a good piece of dramatic musical theatre writing by any means. I stick by every word I've said about it and although I'm terribly sorry to disappoint Pastiche in this regard, this has nothing to do with whatever my other "likes" in musical theatre might be.


That's all right. I can live with it. I still have my family, my friends, the sun in the mornin' and the moon at night...

I rather wonder what Dvarg thinks about the social background, view of life, and shortcomings of the Phantom could have been subtly revealed beyond his being obsessed with and in love with music and the soprano he's lured into his lair, but I'm sure he could answer and perhaps maintain that such things could also be better revealed in tightly written, clever forced rhyme.
Hans

Re: LOVE NEVER DIES Songs

Pastiche wrote:
I rather wonder what Dvarg thinks about the social background, view of life, and shortcomings of the Phantom could have been subtly revealed beyond his being obsessed with and in love with music and the soprano he's lured into his lair, but I'm sure he could answer and perhaps maintain that such things could also be better revealed in tightly written, clever forced rhyme.


Haha, this is such an obvious could you do it better yourself? argumentation.

Writers have made much more interresting lyrics for much simpler and less important characters than the Phantom.

And, what exactly equals clever rhyme with forced rhyme?
Barberous

ATM I'm with Mungojerrie_rt - 'The Music of the Night' should be shorter. Beyond that I'm not particularly attached to it or hating of it.

Does anybody have thoughts on what might work better in its place? I'm not arguing that the song must be regarded as adequate unless we can top it. I'm just curious. What does one do when one has dramatically brought one's dream girl to one's creepy lair? Everything I think of seems amusingly anticlimactic and awkward. Even the thought of Christine and the Phantom having an extended non-sung conversation seems wrong somehow. (No wonder she conveniently faints for most of her time alone with the Phantom!) Or do you think that the Phantom *does* need a seduction song at that point in the show, but just a different one?
Hans

Barberous wrote:
Does anybody have thoughts on what might work better in its place? I'm not arguing that the song must be regarded as adequate unless we can top it. I'm just curious. What does one do when one has dramatically brought one's dream girl to one's creepy lair?


That’s not such a dumb idea.

In my opinion, there are at least tow aspects that I’d wish were more illuminated in the show.

First of all, and most importantly, I think it’s very unclear what the musical is about – what ideas is it meant to carry? I think the answer least awkwardly must be something about inner beauty versus outer beauty, one’s need to construct one’s own reality if one is of some reason alienated from society and the negative effects of such a strategy.

I think this could be conveyed as subtext, if we decide to keep the tune and substitute the lyrics. The Phantom could for example elaborate on how composing music can be somewhat similar to architecture, he did build (parts of) the opera house, if I remember correctly. His need for Christine could have been more deeply explored through such an approach.

The second main issue I have with the musical, is Christine’s perception of the Phantom’s association with her father. I think this unclear relationship could have been taken advantage of in the lyrics, making it more plausible that Christine trust this weirdo. It could also be make clear what she believes the Phantom is, a sexual being, a father figure, a spirit sent from her father or whatever impression she’s under.

Both these aspects could serve to give the song actual substance. As it is, the song is mainly a long description of the situation. Also, too much seems to have been left “open for interpretation”, when in reality it’s just unclear and confusing.

This only the first ideas that popped into my head, and I don't think more rhymes in itself would improve the song.
Pastiche

Dvarg wrote:
Barberous wrote:
Does anybody have thoughts on what might work better in its place? I'm not arguing that the song must be regarded as adequate unless we can top it. I'm just curious. What does one do when one has dramatically brought one's dream girl to one's creepy lair?


That’s not such a dumb idea.

In my opinion, there are at least tow aspects that I’d wish were more illuminated in the show.

First of all, and most importantly, I think it’s very unclear what the musical is about – what ideas is it meant to carry? I think the answer least awkwardly must be something about inner beauty versus outer beauty, one’s need to construct one’s own reality if one is of some reason alienated from society and the negative effects of such a strategy.

I think this could be conveyed as subtext, if we decide to keep the tune and substitute the lyrics. The Phantom could for example elaborate on how composing music can be somewhat similar to architecture, he did build (parts of) the opera house, if I remember correctly. His need for Christine could have been more deeply explored through such an approach.


See, you do have some ideas. I didn't expect you to re-write the song before our very eyes.

When in the show would you have the Phantom elaborate on composing music being similar to architecture? Do you mean in the song or in the subtext? I know this was just a first idea, but that kind of exposition sounds like a real show-stopper, especially in a song that is the first real interaction between the Phantom and Christine (not counting the frenetic running around that leads to the boat bringing them to the lair---although she does discover during all that, that he is just a man).

Dvarg wrote:
The second main issue I have with the musical, is Christine’s perception of the Phantom’s association with her father. I think this unclear relationship could have been taken advantage of in the lyrics, making it more plausible that Christine trust this weirdo. It could also be make clear what she believes the Phantom is, a sexual being, a father figure, a spirit sent from her father or whatever impression she’s under.


You would have the song that appears at this point in the show a duet, then, including her perceptions? That's possible, of course.

Events and dialogue that precede "Music of the Night" make clear, first, that Christine considers the Phantom, who is just a mysterious voice at that time, an angel sent by her father and an incredible teacher. During the descent to the lair and the song that follows, "Music of the Night," she discovers he is just a man, and if she misses that he is a sexual being during the song, she is in even more of a trance than she appears to be. The father figure business could be made clearer, but I'm not sure where it would best fit in.


Dvarg wrote:
Both these aspects could serve to give the song actual substance. As it is, the song is mainly a long description of the situation. Also, too much seems to have been left “open for interpretation”, when in reality it’s just unclear and confusing.


Others, it seems, agree with you. Either they are the majority, or anyone who thinks the song is OK as it is, is shy about speaking up.
Hans

Pastiche wrote:
When in the show would you have the Phantom elaborate on composing music being similar to architecture? Do you mean in the song or in the subtext?


The vague idea was to give The Music of the Night some substance by letting the Phantom have some metaphors to toy around with to tie the song closer to what I think the show ought to be about.

The best I could come up with was music and architecture being metaphors for how the Phantom hides away from society by building beautiful, metaphorical walls around himself. This isn't something he's consciously aware of, naturally.

Pastiche wrote:
You would have the song that appears at this point in the show a duet, then, including her perceptions?
'

Not necessarily. I'd let the Phantom mention his relationship with the father in some way (wether he speaks the truth or not). He could for example state that "it was while he was building these walls he developed a friendship with her father", or something along such lines.

Pastiche wrote:
Events and dialogue that precede "Music of the Night" make clear, first, that Christine considers the Phantom, who is just a mysterious voice at that time, an angel sent by her father. During the descent to the lair and the song that follows, "Music of the Night," she discovers he is just a man.


If she at first actually believes that the Phantom is a supernatural being, it is particularly awkward that she doesn't react more explicitly if she suddenly realises he's human. I think it's more plausible if she uses the phrase "angel of music" metaphorically.

In general, Christine's silence is very, very awkward in this very long song.

So my new text for TMOTN would be about the Phantom's technical skills (which can give Chrisine more to react to than a description of a gothic athmosphere), and the subtext about how these technical skills are used in a strategy to avoid his problems.

It's probably a bit too obvious, but it's a place to start.
Pastiche

Dvarg wrote:
Pastiche wrote:
When in the show would you have the Phantom elaborate on composing music being similar to architecture? Do you mean in the song or in the subtext?


The vague idea was to give The Music of the Night some substance by letting the Phantom have some metaphors to toy around with to tie the song closer to what I think the show ought to be about.

The best I could come up with was music and architecture being metaphors for how the Phantom hides away from society by building beautiful, metaphorical walls around himself. This isn't something he's consciously aware of, naturally.


--Another kind of mask, perhaps. The show is full of masks, literal and metaphorical.



Dvarg wrote:
... I'd let the Phantom mention his relationship with the father in some way (wether he speaks the truth or not). He could for example state that "it was while he was building these walls he developed a friendship with her father", or something along such lines.


I think I see what you mean, but it doesn't sound as interesting to me as lines that tell of the intoxicating and seductive powers of darkness and music.

Pastiche wrote:
Events and dialogue that precede "Music of the Night" make clear, first, that Christine considers the Phantom, who is just a mysterious voice at that time, an angel sent by her father. During the descent to the lair and the song that follows, "Music of the Night," she discovers he is just a man.



Dvarg wrote:
If she at first actually believes that the Phantom is a supernatural being, it is particularly awkward that she doesn't react more explicitly if she suddenly realises he's human. I think it's more plausible if she uses the phrase "angel of music" metaphorically.


Yes...it can be taken that way and is sometimes played that way, I think. Even if it isn't, she's in a little boat with very imposing and threatening man with a big pole (pardon the expression) when she realizes it ain't the Angel of Music. She is surrounded by mist and strange sights and knows not where she is being taken. I suppose she could scream or try to hit him with the boat's lantern, but, but really, what's a girl to do? --I suppose look more horrified rather than stunned, intrigued, and then hypnotized

Dvarg wrote:
In general, Christine's silence is very, very awkward in this very long song.


The pat answer is that she is stunned by events and very nearly hypnotized by his singing. That answer won't make it any less awkward for a theater person who finds it awkward, but I just haven't found that ordinary theater-goers get fidgety or give any evidence of finding this song and scene either awkward or too long. On the contrary, there has been in my experience, a hushed silence, followed by big applause when the song is over.

Dvarg wrote:
So my new text for TMOTN would be about the Phantom's technical skills (which can give Chrisine more to react to than a description of a gothic athmosphere), and the subtext about how these technical skills are used in a strategy to avoid his problems.

It's probably a bit too obvious, but it's a place to start.


You have certainly given the song considerable thought. Most people who bash it don't bother. Nonetheless, a song about the Phantom's technical skills sounds pretty ZZzzzzzzz-worthy to me. It would take a better lyricist than ALW usually has to make it actually work in the show.
Hans

Pastiche wrote:
Nonetheless, a song about the Phantom's technical skills sounds pretty ZZzzzzzzz-worthy to me. It would take a better lyricist than ALW usually has to make it actually work in the show.


Well, the entire point is that it should only be about the technical skills on the surface. I'm not insisting it should be about architecture and composition. It was just one suggestion on how to make the text work on different levels.

And yes, it's really baffling how ALW employs worse and worse lyricists Shocked
Mungojerrie_rt

Phantom does have some really good lyrics in it. Namely those that are Richard Stilgoe's:

Who'd believe a
Diva happy to relieve a
Chorus girl
Who's gone and slept with the patron
Raoul and the soubrette
Entwined in love's duet
Although he may demur
He must have been with her
You'd never get away
With all this in a play
But if it's loudly sung
And in a foreign tongue
It's just the sort of story audiences adore
In fact the perfect Opera.
Hans

Mungojerrie_rt wrote:
Phantom does have some really good lyrics in it. Namely those that are Richard Stilgoe's.


I agree.

Pastiche wrote:
I just haven't found that ordinary theater-goers get fidgety or give any evidence of finding this song and scene either awkward or too long. On the contrary, there has been in my experience, a hushed silence, followed by big applause when the song is over.


My theory is that this is because they find the song and its setting very pretty, rather than that they think it achieves something important dramatugically.
Pastiche

Dvarg wrote:

Pastiche wrote:
I just haven't found that ordinary theater-goers get fidgety or give any evidence of finding this song and scene either awkward or too long. On the contrary, there has been in my experience, a hushed silence, followed by big applause when the song is over.


My theory is that this is because they find the song and its setting very pretty, rather than that they think it achieves something important dramatugically.


I would be willing to BET that 999 out of a thousand aren't giving a thought to whether or not the song achieves something important dramaturgically! Laughing

While you are probably right about audiences finding the song to be "pretty," the setting of the song is pretty much basic black box----The organ, the Phantom, the girl and behind them in the dark, the portcullis.

I suppose the audience might be distracted from such a bad song by this setting, but, no, I don't think so.
Barberous

Dvarg wrote:
I think the answer least awkwardly must be something about inner beauty versus outer beauty, one’s need to construct one’s own reality if one is of some reason alienated from society and the negative effects of such a strategy.


Interesting idea. I think that the 'The Music of The Night' scene does get a bit of that across... the set-up of the song in which the Phantom rushes to hide behind music rather than attempting a normal interaction. His reliance purely on music as a seductive, manipulative force to attract her, rather than on anything about himself. Perhaps his lack of self-revelation could be seen as revealing in itself? (Too generous??) The Phantom is too messed up to be attractive when we actually know what he's about (see 'Down once More'!), so how to convey just the right amount of insight about him before then?

I wonder if the idea of the Phantom's various 'masks', as Pastiche put it (music, architecture) would work better if referenced more explicitly not in TMOTN, but later in the show. Perhaps when the Phantom is unmasked publically, more could be made of the fact that his opera has failed to provide him with the triumph he expected - the dangers of bringing your fantasy story out into reality. So then he resolves to retreat into his fantasy world forever, but it's too late because the outside world is intruding, etc, etc. Or in 'Down Once More', instead of giving up on trying to seem attractive once unmasked, the Phantom could try again to offer music to Christine and be rejected.

Dvarg wrote:
The second main issue I have with the musical, is Christine’s perception of the Phantom’s association with her father. I think this unclear relationship could have been taken advantage of in the lyrics, making it more plausible that Christine trust this weirdo. It could also be make clear what she believes the Phantom is, a sexual being, a father figure, a spirit sent from her father or whatever impression she’s under.

Dvarg wrote:
I'd let the Phantom mention his relationship with the father in some way (wether he speaks the truth or not). He could for example state that "it was while he was building these walls he developed a friendship with her father", or something along such lines.

Dvarg wrote:
If she at first actually believes that the Phantom is a supernatural being, it is particularly awkward that she doesn't react more explicitly if she suddenly realises he's human. I think it's more plausible if she uses the phrase "angel of music" metaphorically.

I think the title song does give some indications of Christine's (changing) perception of the Phantom. "And do I dream again?" is an acknowledgement of how intensely weird she's finding the situation. Her next verse shows she gets that he's the Opera Ghost. The Phantom's "In all your fantasy, you always knew that man and mystery [were both in me]" is his attempt to convince Christine that she knows and likes that he's this weird father/psycho-lover hybrid. And Christine agrees. I don't think she lets herself realise at this point that her perception of the Phantom is muddled and nonsensical. She wants her father back, in whatever form she can have him. It's only by 'Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again' that she gets how crazy that is.

Probably all this could be conveyed better in the show than it is, but I think the idea of Christine trying to retain several irreconcileable perceiptions of the Phantom at once does work for her character. As long as - as you say - the father thing is presented strongly as her motivation. But I wouldn't want the Phantom to mention knowing her father or similar. I think it's right that he hints at it without stating the connection outright - it's a more subtle form of manipulation that lets her draw the conclusion for herself.
Pastiche

Barberous wrote:


I wonder if the idea of the Phantom's various 'masks', as Pastiche put it (music, architecture) would work better if referenced more explicitly not in TMOTN, but later in the show. Perhaps when the Phantom is unmasked publically, more could be made of the fact that his opera has failed to provide him with the triumph he expected - the dangers of bringing your fantasy story out into reality. So then he resolves to retreat into his fantasy world forever, but it's too late because the outside world is intruding, etc, etc. Or in 'Down Once More', instead of giving up on trying to seem attractive once unmasked, the Phantom could try again to offer music to Christine and be rejected.


I'm not sure that the show would be improved by making these things explicit. I think it is already pretty obvious to the audience that everything has fallen apart for him after Christine unmasks him completely in PONR. They don't really need to be told that his opera has failed to bring him the triumph he wanted. They see it for themselves.

I don't think it would be a good idea to have him try to win her with music again. He has been trying to do just that throughout the show. He taught her to sing beautifully. He seduced her with "Music of the Night." He wrote an opera for her and made sure she starred in it. And what does he get for his trouble? She rips his mask and wig off in front of everyone. He has to be through with winning her with music.

I rather like the lack of explicit messages in "Music of the Night," in PONR, and in the final scene unless such themes could be underlined without getting in the way of the emotional effect. The scenes have proved to be emotionally moving for large numbers of people.


Barberous wrote:
Dvarg wrote:
The second main issue I have with the musical, is Christine’s perception of the Phantom’s association with her father. I think this unclear relationship could have been taken advantage of in the lyrics, making it more plausible that Christine trust this weirdo. It could also be make clear what she believes the Phantom is, a sexual being, a father figure, a spirit sent from her father or whatever impression she’s under.

Dvarg wrote:
I'd let the Phantom mention his relationship with the father in some way (wether he speaks the truth or not). He could for example state that "it was while he was building these walls he developed a friendship with her father", or something along such lines.

Dvarg wrote:
If she at first actually believes that the Phantom is a supernatural being, it is particularly awkward that she doesn't react more explicitly if she suddenly realises he's human. I think it's more plausible if she uses the phrase "angel of music" metaphorically.


I think the title song does give some indications of Christine's (changing) perception of the Phantom. "And do I dream again?" is an acknowledgement of how intensely weird she's finding the situation. Her next verse shows she gets that he's the Opera Ghost. The Phantom's "In all your fantasy, you always knew that man and mystery [were both in me]" is his attempt to convince Christine that she knows and likes that he's this weird father/psycho-lover hybrid. And Christine agrees. I don't think she lets herself realise at this point that her perception of the Phantom is muddled and nonsensical. She wants her father back, in whatever form she can have him. It's only by 'Wishing You Were Somehow Here Again' that she gets how crazy that is.

Probably all this could be conveyed better in the show than it is, but I think the idea of Christine trying to retain several irreconcileable perceiptions of the Phantom at once does work for her character. As long as - as you say - the father thing is presented strongly as her motivation. But I wouldn't want the Phantom to mention knowing her father or similar. I think it's right that he hints at it without stating the connection outright - it's a more subtle form of manipulation that lets her draw the conclusion for herself.


Yes, there are hints. I think there are enough hints, and I wouldn't want the Phantom to mention her father to make the idea clearer, especially in "Music of the Night," which is about a seduction by means of music (not Christine's daddy issues) by a man who, although seemingly powerful, seems very unsure about even approaching her in person. He was pushed into the kidnapping by the the arrival of Raoul and her reaction to the young man.
Hans

Pastiche wrote:
I rather like the lack of explicit messages in "Music of the Night," in PONR, and in the final scene unless such themes could be underlined without getting in the way of the emotional effect. The scenes have proved to be emotionally moving for large numbers of people.


I think this is approximately the consensus among the fans of the show. To me, it seems like being emotionally won over by wall paper. It can be pretty, but I get more involved emotionally in things that carry meaning.
livemodernx3

I'm just going to say it:

Dvarg, you absolutely know your shit when it comes to theatre.

I thoroughly enjoy reading your posts. You really, really know what you are talking about, and I find that incredibly refreshing, considering where I come from no one gives theatre a second thought.

Bravo! Applause
Hans

livemodernx3 wrote:
You really, really know what you are talking about, and I find that incredibly refreshing...


Embarassed Thanks Very Happy
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