Vanessa20
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Kim's sacrificeI'm a fan of both musicals and opera, whose interest in "Miss Saigon" led me to "Madama Butterfly," an opera that I now know inside and out.
Butterfly's motivations for suicide are a little different than Kim's. She doesn't do it to make Pinkerton and Kate take her child. Instead, Kate actually asks her to give them the child, and she agrees because she knows it's best for him, but then kills herself out of grief and so he won't have to grow up thinking she abandoned him.
My parents disagree about whether the changed motivation in "Miss Saigon" is an improvement or not. My dad likes it because it makes Kim stronger and less of a victim than Butterfly.
But my mom thinks it's manipulative. Kim/Butterfly has other reasons besides the child for wanting to die (losing Chris/Pinkerton, having to live as a bar girl/geisha, etc.), "Butterfly" essentially lets her motivations be complex, and my mom thinks it cheapens the whole thing to put it under the blanket motivation of "self-sacrifice for her child."
I'm not sure which idea I agree with. I can see it from both sides. What do you all think?
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Fantine
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I think it is rather manipulative of Kim to die. She doesn't give Ellen and Chris much of a choice in the matter, does she?
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Vanessa20
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| Fantine wrote: | | I think it is rather manipulative of Kim to die. She doesn't give Ellen and Chris much of a choice in the matter, does she? |
Obviously not.
Do you think it's a manipulative plot twist to have her die to force Ellen and Chris to take Tam? Or do you think it's an improvement over the original, where they actually ask her to give them the boy?
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Barberous
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I don't know Madama Butterfly, so I can't compare the endings. Just looking at Miss Saigon, I voted 'moving' over 'manipulative', though it's both. I don't think the Miss Saigon version has to be played with simplified emotions. Kim's motives might be more complex than just loving self-sacrifice.
There could also be...
- Vindictiveness/revenge - making Chris and Ellen feel (more) guilty.
- As mentioned in the poll, manipulation and wanting power - as Kim says, the action gives her control of the situation.
- Insanity - Her lyrics very late in the show might support this.
- 'Winning' over Ellen - a bit of a stretch, but in a way it's a victory for Kim. She gets Chris' attention back for a few last moments of romantic fantasy, and Ellen will be forced to raise Tam.
- Genuine desire to die - Kim's hopes and dreams are all destroyed, not to mention her faith in human nature and in having the gods' favour.
Edit to add - However, the OP may not have meant that she thinks that Kim's motives are simple, but just that her parents think that. I don't mean to sound patronising in "explaining" Kim. I'm just musing on what her motives could be.
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jackrussell
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I think it's both moving and manipulative. Yes, it's manipulative because she does it to force Chris and Ellen's hand, but it's also moving that she feels she has to go to such lengths to secure her son's future.
It gives the show's libretto more depth than that of Madame Butterfly, which is much simpler - she kills herself because she's so sad. Likewise the portrayal of Chris in the show is more multi-faceted than Pinkerton in the opera, who is simply a cad who seduces a girl. Chris by contrast appears to want to do the right thing by Kim until he gives up because it has become too difficult (which of course is a symbolic indictment of America's activities in Vietnam).
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LedZeppelinBarbieGirl
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| Quote: | | Likewise the portrayal of Chris in the show is more multi-faceted than Pinkerton in the opera, who is simply a cad who seduces a girl. Chris by contrast appears to want to do the right thing by Kim until he gives up because it has become too difficult (which of course is a symbolic indictment of America's activities in Vietnam). |
I agree. Though Chris's songs are weak, his role, I felt, was vastly improved upon from the original.
Kim? Manipulative? No. She was a mother with no options left.
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Barberous
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As I said, I don't know the original, but I totally agree re song quality vs character quality in this show. It's weird, Miss Saigon is ALL music and lyrics, and I think their quality is, well, patchy, but somehow they add up to some really interesting characters. Personally, I prefer that to brilliant music about boring people.
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LedZeppelinBarbieGirl
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The music is not great and many of the lyrics are terrible but ultimately, I think that the emotional power outweighs its weaknesses. The poor lyrics do not cheapen the intent of the show. The book is extremely well executed and when you think about the real intent behind most of the songs, its easy to overlook the show's flaws.
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jackrussell
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| LedZeppelinBarbieGirl wrote: | | The music is not great and many of the lyrics are terrible but ultimately, I think that the emotional power outweighs its weaknesses. The poor lyrics do not cheapen the intent of the show. The book is extremely well executed and when you think about the real intent behind most of the songs, its easy to overlook the show's flaws. |
I agree with your last sentence but I think you're a bit unfair on the lyrics.
It's much easier to have intelligent, well-crafted lyrics in a traditional book musical. In a sung-through show like Miss Saigon, the lyrics also have to carry the story along, without any help from spoken scenes. This makes it unfair to compare Maltby's lyrics to those of (say) Lerner, Hammerstein, Hart et al. I think his lyrics are pretty good - they tell the story effectively and believably and in important emotional moments they do rise to the occasion.
I also don't think Chris's songs are weak. This midsection of Why God Why and the Let Me Tell You The Way It Was sequence are among the most effective (both musically and lyrically) moments in the whole show.
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LedZeppelinBarbieGirl
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| Quote: | | This makes it unfair to compare Maltby's lyrics to those of (say) Lerner, Hammerstein, Hart et al. I think his lyrics are pretty good - they tell the story effectively and believably and in important emotional moments they do rise to the occasion. |
I think the lyrics pad the story well enough but a lot of it is just embarassing to listen to.
For instance:
In all his dreams, he saw our baby
And he's teaching him to fly
Paper dragons in the sky
*cringes*
and:
"A song played solo saxophone
A crazy sound, a lonely sound
A cry that tells us love goes on and on"
Oy.
and there's more:
"Sometimes I wake up,
Reaching for him
I feel his shadow brush my head,
but there's just moonlight on my bed.
Was he a ghost? Was he a lie?
That made my body laugh and cry?"
But as bad as the lyrics are, I agree. The real intent of the songs overpower the lyrics' ineloquence, which elevates Miss Saigon from the other high-spectacle, European mega musicals.
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alcockell
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| jackrussell wrote: | I think it's both moving and manipulative. Yes, it's manipulative because she does it to force Chris and Ellen's hand, but it's also moving that she feels she has to go to such lengths to secure her son's future.
It gives the show's libretto more depth than that of Madame Butterfly, which is much simpler - she kills herself because she's so sad. Likewise the portrayal of Chris in the show is more multi-faceted than Pinkerton in the opera, who is simply a cad who seduces a girl. Chris by contrast appears to want to do the right thing by Kim until he gives up because it has become too difficult (which of course is a symbolic indictment of America's activities in Vietnam). |
In Butterfly, Cio-Cio-San kills herself out of *shame*. Honour is BIG in Bushido code... Jigai was slicing the windpipe as opposed to Seppuku.
It's a form of hara-kiri.
Agree with your points though.
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Vanessa20
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| alcockell wrote: | | In Butterfly, Cio-Cio-San kills herself out of *shame*. Honour is BIG in Bushido code... Jigai was slicing the windpipe as opposed to Seppuku. |
Yes, Butterfly's motives are complex in their own right (I'm using Barberous' list of Kim's possible motives as a template):
- Sadness
- Shame/desire to maintain her honor
- Protecting her child from having to grow up thinking she abandoned him (she emphasizes this in her final aria)
- Insanity (possibly)
- Vindictiveness/revenge (Jean-Pierre Ponnelle particularly emphasized this in his film version)
- Guilt (i.e. if only she hadn't been so naive, everything would have been different)
I still understand why some people think the Miss Saigon situation has more depth, though. I'm so glad that people have responded to this topic.
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jackrussell
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Fair points, I did oversimplify Butterfly's motivation.
I still think the Miss Saigon version has more depth though, certainly in the modern setting.
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