[Pounce]

Hope this doesn't prove to be too controversial.

I think it is well-known that many actors in musical theater are gay. Consequently, many will fill roles of that of a heterosexual male. I really don't have a problem with that except when the actor still has mannerisms and/or voice of a gay male.

I think Tugger was originally conceived as being bisexual but I really think he works best as the alpha male, "ladies' man". Munkustrap is also an "alpha male" but Tugger doesn't conflict with Munk's role because Tugger prefers to remain somewhat of a maverick. He does this by often being standoffish from the rest of the tribe.

In performances I've seen where Tugger sounds gay, it just doesn't work for me. He's not believeable as the Mick Jagger or better still Elvis type character that is in Tugger's description for casting.

And similarly, in some regional productions, they have Tugger as a gay character who consequently shuns female advances which doesn't fit the notion that Tugger only likes what he finds for himself.

[Rumblepurr]

Actually, I see him more BIsexual than anything. He IS a "Curious" Cat after all, and he just might be when a Tom of a similar nature comes along. And if he did not woo a Queen or Princess somewhere down the line - the word would get around...

The same with Bombalurina...

Both are BI...

My opinion...
Rumblepurr
The Writer Cat.

[Cassandra]

Okay, in my opinion, this should not even be an issue. A person's sexual orientation should not matter when it comes to filling a role, just as their religion, color of their skin, etc. shouldn't matter (unless a role is specifically written with a particular type in mind, i.e. a character that could be no one other than an African-American male).

That said, it would be very discriminating and prejudiced to limit casting of the Tugger to only straight males. Seriously, does that even sound fair to you, Pounce? What difference does it make whether the guy is gay or straight, provided he puts on a good show? I'm sorry if you don't like it when you see a Tugger that "sounds gay," but somebody in the casting ring must have liked his audition, or else he wouldn't be up onstage performing.

Weren't there rumors that John Partridge is gay? He's not my favorite Tugger in the world, but I think he did a very good job. Plenty of teeny-bopper girly-fans have/had crushes on him, so he must have been doing something right. Is he not convincing enough for you?

Sorry, but this is a very touchy subject for me as I'm a big advocate for gay rights and equality.

[Flitterbug]

I dont think this is an equality issue. More one of personal taste or opinion. I'm with the "Curious Cat" edict.

In my opinion it doesn't matter whether the guy playing Tugger sounds straight, gay, or both-by-turns so long as he can wiggle his hips.

[Cassandra]

Okay, if it's not an equality issue, then what's the original post for?

[Belle]

I think he's saying you need to have actors who can leave themselves and their own issues in the dressing room, and who totally inhabit the character when they step onstage. I totally agree with this - When I see "Les Mis", for example, I want to see Marius, not an actor who has the hots for the guy playing Enjolras... Whatever they do offstage is fine, it's fabulous if they can stand up and be proud of who they are, that's great! But a Gay man (and let's face it, Political correctness aside, some gay men can be VERY stereotypical!) needs to act straight when playing a straight role.

As for Tugger - I agree that he's a Curious Cat... I see him swinging perfectly happily either way, but always dominant. The Queens are fine, the princesses are so fun to play with, and so energetic! But the Tom kittens who hero-worship him and want to get closer- that's just fine with him too. I agree he needs to be a strong Alpha Male character, deferring only to Munkustrap and Deut. He can't be a camp submissive creature the rest of the time, it's not Tugger!

I think John Partridge hits the balance very well as Tugger - when he's playing Tugger, not John Partridge in Lycra. Offstage he did his ironing at the interval, and he's very open about his past relationships. But onstage, he played a strong dominant male who's very interested in the queens!

[Cassandra]

[Carbucketty]

[Roller Boy]

THe current Forum Nominee is.

[Nemi]

*does her best out of the conversation*

I an say my thoughts are IDENTICAL to Cassandra's.

Is it okay to descrimate according to race or religion? Of course not... what makes sexual orientation any different? EQUAL rights, my friends... equal.


..Plus the fact that the majority of male actor/dancer/singer combos are gay... not all! Just most!

[Rahlee]

...you know, instead of being indignant and annoyed about how this question was even asked, like I usually do...I find it oddly amusing. Heck if I know why.

[Rumblepurr]

First off - I am not coming back on as a Moderator, so please do not think I am "showing the badge here." I am commenting on what might be a misunderstanding...

I must have missed something in Pounce's opening statements to imply that we were going to talk about anything more than the Character of Rum Tum Tugger. When I answered, I was thinking about the Tugger, and HIS preference - not the performer inside the lycra...

John Partirdge is probably the most widely known Tugger because he was the last one on New London, and he was the Video Tugger... Most of us also know his preference is gay or bi. He certainly knows about his own sex appeal because he definitely can carry Tugger off very well. When he does this, John and the Tugger become blurred...

The character of Tugger has fans in both genders of the Tribe during his number, and anytime he gets up to strut his stuff. Most of us can understand the Queens going after him, but even a few of the Toms have the same look of adoration. That is what makes me think that the Character of Tugger is bi-sexual. And, on the same slide, so is Bombalurina...

I truly believe that this was the intent of the thread... The debate is on the CHARACTER of Tugger - gay, bi or straight...

Respectfully,
Rumblepurr
The Writer Cat...

[Natasha]

What are you talking about???


Tugger is a CAT!!!!

[Erikonil]

I hear that, cats will go for any thing with four legs and then sometimes they'll go for the stray human leg

I think the Tugger character is bicurious who leans a bit more towards the queens. He flirts more with the queens, but he strikes me as the type who would do anything pretty.

[Cassandra]

[Cassandra]

[enkeli-kitten]

I didn't know actors could sound gay, but I think Tugger rocks whatever sexuality the actor is! But topics like this always get huge arguments. All we need is a good actor regardles of what their personal life is, as long as they play the character well it doesn't really matter. ^_^

[abbeycat]

when you become a member of the cast of Cats, each cat is given three words to describe their character, I know that two of Tuggers words are 'arrogant' and 'bisexual' i think the other word was something like 'unaware/unaccountable for his actions'
ive got them all written down somewhere.....
I ve always thought of the Tugger to be a sort of androgyenous (sp?) and has an appeal to any cat, to the extent that the queens want his kittens and the toms want to be him some even have a crush on him....*shrugs*

[Natasha]

It's unnatural.
Cats can't be like that.

[Cassandra]

Well, cats can't tap dance, or knit, or rob Woolworth pearls, or perform magic tricks, or do anything like what they do in the show.

They're not real cats. They're fictional characters. Why can't one of them be bisexual?

[Natasha]

Because.

[Spanish_Rumple]

people... you talk a lot....hehehe the issue is much more simple than all that... On stage you're not who you really are, remember in the Middleage, women were banned in the actor job, therefore if there was a role of a dame, a man had to do it.

In fact, does it really matter something so private as the sexual appeal when you act, sing or whatever thing you do? Of course not. Hey cmmon, what if our president Aznar was really gay or ....hehehe imagine Bush... but nobody knows their private feelings and they "play" the role they have to do, and they do it perfectly (I mean they are politicians).

So when it comes to acting it's the same. Where's the problem if there's a homosexual playing the role of a very very male character?? I mean there's no need to know if he or she is homo, bi or whatever they like to be. That point is out of discussion I think.

As for the fans...(and I'm a big lover of John Partridge, I must admit) it's their responsibility if they fall in love with a person that'll never correspond them! (either because of a different sexual interest or because they'll never meet in person).

In my opinion, as a matter of fact sexual interests are not a factor to use when you have to judge if a character or an other will fit an actor best. It's the same point if for instance I'm talking about liking chocolate, imagine that the director has to choose between two characters in order to give one to an actor. One of the characters loves white chocolate and the other prefers milk chocolate with nuts, and then imagine that the actor loves milk chocolate with nuts. Do you really think that the director should give to the actor the character that loves milk chocolate with nuts???? NO!!!!!!!!

That's my point of view.

[Rahlee]

[Lady Jemima]

There's one scene in the video ( I can't find it now that I'm looking for it) that Tugger drapes his arm around one of the Toms. It's in the background while there's a lot of activity going on in the foreground.

Just for the record.

What evidence is there that Bomba is bisexual?

[Spanish_Rumple]

Could it be Plato?? The one Tugger is with... By the way I was thinking about Plato's bisexuality... he's Victoria's mate... but in Tugger's song he looks at Tugger in such a way.... (I'm talking about the video version)

[Rumblepurr]

She and Demeter seem very tight - more so than sisters or friends...

I write Bomba as borderline bi... which means she goes mostly for guys (Toms), but she might not pass up a good-looking lady (Queen). Many people look at Bombalurina as a mirror image of Tugger, and thus possibly just as experimental when it comes to all things sensual...

Note: I also write Bomba as being highly selective, and fiercely loyal... You pass her standards before you get close to her... And if she is with someone, pass her by...

Rumblepurr
The Writer Cat

[Moongewl]

The thing is...well, to me looking and acting gay are not the same as being gay. It's more akin to hair dye if you ask me: I dyed my hair orange, and knew I wasn't going to be in any school plays. Had getting a role in a play been really important to me, I would have been okay with dyeing my hair to a more subdued color. If you have a trait which is specifically associated with a personality stereotype(in this case, the "OMG Flamboyant Gay Man") then it should be acceptable to ask an actor to "tone it down."
If it were a straight man playing a gay character, wouldn't it be acceptable to say "Okay, when you're in character don't stare at any woman's breasts"? How is this different?

[Roxanne]

I agree with Moongewl on this issue.

The actor's sexual preference should not be an issue. His ability to leave that aside and portray a role as it needs to be portrayed should be the issue.

So a guy sounds and acts steriotypically gay in real life. That's fine, that's who he is, okay. But if he's an actor, he should be able to get away from who he is and become the role he portrays. He needs to be able to act realistically, according to the role he's given.

[Belle]

[Lady Jemima]

Which male actors in the Video are not gay in real life? (I know many of them are)...

[Lady Jemima]

[MsJellicle]

Hm...Interesting discussion going on. The same as Rumblepurr, I thought the original question was about the character of Tugger, not the performer. But, I see the point of view of those who are discussing the performer.

Anyways, here's my two-cents worth:
I think that the character of Tugger is straight...but he's probably not one to pass up a 'good time' if there is another male involved. I see the 'adoring looks' that other toms give him as looks that mean "Gee I wish I could be like him! He's got everything going for him!"

As for the person playing the character...the important thing is really how well they portray the character...not if they are gay or not. If the character is supposed to be straight, he shouldn't really have 'gay mannerisms' and such (if you're using the stereotypical 'gay' that is. Truth is that not all gay men have those stereotypical mannerisms). If the character is supposed to be bi- then play him that way. If he is supposed to be gay, then don't play him only after the women. There are plenty of straight men who have portrayed gay men, and plenty of gay men who have portrayed straight men (i.e.~Rock Hudson).

On another note...I'm glad to see that people here are debating nicely with no personal attacks.

~MsJ

[Etcetera Kitten]

Ahhh, such interesting debates! I love to debate, and I usually like to hear people with different point of view than mine. So here is my opinion on the matter:

I very recently learned for Rumblepurr on another topic that Tugger may actually be bisexual in most productions, but I somehow rather agree with MsJellicle's point of view. Plus, but bisexual cats are a rare thing in reality. There ARE real cats that have homosexual behaviors, either to ease stress or because of slight sexual disoders, and it's just a fact. I myself own one sexually deviant cat, that I love to bits but that does behave weirdly, so we had him castrated. But that isnt the real matter of the topic hehe.

Now, as for the "dancer cats", I don't think it matters much for the show. I myself had never really noticed that Tugger may be been homosexual until Rumble pointed it out. But my opinion is that good actors/dancers can definately carry on any role and make it look wonderful, so yeah. Sexual orientation shouldnt be regarded as much as the talent. It doesn't keep me from loving the show and enjoying the Tugger's song. I won't lie though, that I am not Tugger's girl, but rather Tumble's ^^

[_dot_]

It's a hard fact of professional theatre that sometimes roles must be cast in a way that seems discriminatory. It's just difficult to make someone who's blonde look black or vise versa. Just like it's difficult to teach a guy who has a very stereotypical gay voice to speak otherwise. A lot of actors can do it and it's a major trait that makes people good actors; modifying the way you talk/act/move/look to fit your character. People who can't seem to modify their voices also tend to have trouble with accents or speaking in foreign languages. I recently played Eliza in My Fair Lady and I ended up having to teach a bunch of people to speak with British accents because they just couldn't hear it by themselves. This was at a community theatre so the talent as far as accents go (as harsh as it is to say) was lacking. But in professional theatre it's going to be cast according to who sounds and looks and acts like which character and since there are hundreds of talented people to choose from, it usually isn't a problem.

And it's also discriminatory to say that some people can't play a certain role because they just can't do something that that character has to do. Some people can't sing because they were born tone deaf. They can't help it, yet if you can't sing you don't get cast. Some characters have to be black or Asian and if you're not one of those you don't get cast. Period. Sometimes an actor's appearance can be changed: i.e. even though I'm caucasian I could play a Mexican/Spanish character because I have dark hair and eyes. And with a little eye makeup I could play an Asian character. But with big and/or Broadway productions they have no problem finding an actor with both the right talent and the right nationality. And if they cast someone who isn't it's usually because they had no choice.

Now smaller productions like in schools or small community/educational theatres will cast according to talent or who needs the experience. Schools especially will cast just to give the students a chance to play every type of part, even at a lack of talent or without the right appearance. But with larger community/amateur (like the one I perform at) and professional theatres they just can't afford to do that. People pay (usually large sums of) money to see a show and they want to see actors who are believable in all aspects: talent, expression, speech, movement, appearance, etc...

I'll never be able to play Belle in Beauty and the Beast because I'm half a foot too tall. And I'll never be a lead in Dream Girls because I'm not black. And I'll probably never be in a professional production of A Chorus Line or Cats because I'm just not built to be a dancer. I can dance, I'm just not Broadway dance material.

Suck it up and deal with it! You don't like it? Get out of show business! It's just one big world of discrimination.

Sorry that sounded harsh. It's just the sucky truth.

[Etcetera Kitten]

To answer Lady Jemima's question, I think Fergus Logan is about the only straight male in the DVD cast. He is married with a woman, if my memory is good.

But that doesn't keep the other actors from being amazing in their roles!

[Alonza0]

[Pounce]

Ok, I guess I've been putting this off for too long but at least it has inspired some debate.

There really is only one issue. What is the nature of Tugger? And I say there is only one issue because the purpose of the actor is to inhabit the character. In other words, the actor becomes the character and not the other way around. For the actor to assume the role of Tugger, he must lose himself and become what is Tugger. That is what acting is all about and that is a big part of how a person becomes a good actor. In some cases, the director may leave open to the actor to interpret the character but good actors try to research the role and try to understand what characteristics are consistent with the performance.

The best example that comes to mind in recent films is Jamie Foxx's portray of Ray Charles. In a remarkable tour de force in acting (rewarded with an oscar), Foxx really had me believing that what I was seeing was Ray Charles. Now, should Foxx have used his own mannerisms and style of speech to play the role? If he did, I'd be thinking that I was watching Jamie Foxx and not Ray Charles. Needless to say, anyone other than a black male should play the part. A white male who refuses to drop a New York jewish accent probably won't work.

There will be discrimination in casting based on an actor's ability to fit a role. A person other than a white male could do the role of FDR in "Annie" but unless actor does a very good impression and the makeup is very good, the audience will have more of a difficult time accepting the actor as FDR. An American playing a British character really needs to have a British accent. Or if the actor is playing an American Southerner, then he really should have a southern accent. If we think it's not important then why even bother with costumes? Every possible effort is made so that the audience can suspend reality and accept the alternative world on stage. Stereotypes have a bad reputation but actors use them all the time. Acting is more than trying to be real but amplifying traits of the character.

As for religion, there should be no problem if the actor's religious practices don't interfer with his or her performance. If a jewish actor insisted on wearing a yarmulke during his performance then there might be some concern if an outward sign of being jewish would clash with the character. It would look odd to an audience for an anti-semitic character to be wearing a skullcap. Or if I could take it to an extreme, imagine if all the cast queens in CATS insist because of their religious belief that they have to wear burqas in the performance.


If I were a director, I wouldn't care if the burqas have all the correct colorings for the character. The answer is....no! I don't want the toms dancing on stage with moving tents.

There is more leeway if the character is not well-known. If we decide that Tugger is not a gay character then a gay actor who is unable to lose his "gayness" for the over two hours of the show will probably result in a less than satisfying performance. From his performance, I couldn't tell if John Partridge was gay. To me, for that performance, he exuded Tuggerness. He is supposed to be Tugger, not John Partridge. Tugger gets and likes the attention of the queens which seems to characterize him more than his interest in males. So he might be bisexual but with more interest in the females. Consequently Tugger should be played by an actor who is somewhat tall, with masculine features, and can act and sound heterosexual. Otherwise, I would find it hard to believe in the queens' adoration of him and his basking in the attention.

Casting for Tugger however might be difficult. Actors who can both sing and dance well are not exactly in abundant supply. We had one post recently where their production of CATS had to be canceled due to a lack of males to fill the roles. The Tour might have to go with what talent they can find and as I stated at the start, many of the males will be gay. If the actor can turn off his "gayness" if the role calls for it then he is merely doing his job as an actor. If not then the portrayal of Tugger comes across as being gay, and for me, that is not Tugger.