ConverseSneaker
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Generational TheoryI was re-reading all the Into the Woods threads on here and I noticed that a theory was mentioned a few times by some people. Credit for this thread goes to you, whoever you are because I'm too lazy to look it up again.
Anyways, the theory was that all the main woman characters were essentially all the same person in different stages of thier lives. The Witch, Baker's Wife, Cinderella, Little Red.
The Witch would be the mother whose child is growing old enough to leave the nest, the Baker's Wife would be the pre-mother, Cinderella the pre-marriage and Red the child.
This sparked another theory where they are all esentially the same person in different situtations. Stepmother is the one who remarried rich and Jack's Mother is the one who didn't remarry and remained poor, etc.
Thoughts?
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Baker
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This pattern shows up in many fairy tales, oftentimes as a child/adult/crone triumvirate. The best example is Snow White, with the little princess herself, her mother or stepmother, and then the transformed hag.
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Tumnus1031
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I agree with Baker--it's been done before, but I didn't notice it in ItW until you brought it up.
I wonder if the same holds true for the males, though I doubt it simply because they're radically different.
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Baker
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Maternal relationships are studied far more in fairy tales than paternal. Most fathers disappear at the beginning of the story, the major exceptions being Beauty and the Beast and Hansel and Gretel. Into the Woods is unique in this way, in that one of major parent/child relationships that it studies is the father/son one through the Baker and the Mysterious Man. Although the men in the show are not as closely related as the women, the same thing can be done:
Jack - child
Princes - adult, bachelor
Baker - adult, married
Mysterious Man - old age
Another interesting thing is to look at the difference between the Mysterious Man and Cinderella's Father. Where Cinderella's Father is physically present, he is absent in that he does nothing to help his daughter. The Mysterious Man, on the other hand, is physically absent from his son's life, but (at least during the course of the show) is actively working to help his son's wish come true.
Going off of this vein, it's interesting to look at the mother figures. The Witch and the Baker's Wife both long to nurture their children, but both are finding this difficult for separate reasons - the Witch because Rapunzel is ready to move on, and the Wife because she simply can't have a child (in Act I, at least). The Stepmother and Jack's Mother, on the other hand, both want to accept and reject. The Stepmother accepts and pampers her own daughters, but rejects Cinderella. Jack's Mother wants to accept Jack, and really does love him, but struggles with his constant daydreaming and lack of concentration and in some ways alienates him because of this ("Sometimes I fear you're touched!")
That came out longer than I thought it would...
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MusicalGal1194
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Wow, this is a great thread. I really like this whole 'all female characters are the same person' thing. It's really kind of creepy if you think about it. But then again, it's completely genius. I was contemplating some of the song lyrics, and some moments from the musical and here's what I came up with:
Little Red is a very naive girl, and sort of spoiled. Which means that after her mother dies, she could essentially grow up to be Cinderella; who is slightly less naive and more wise, but still a bit wishy washy towards the beginning of the story. Then, as she progresses into married life, she becomes more careful, as she wants to protect her child from the horrors of the world that she may of seen in the woods. This means she is now The Baker's Wife, assuming that she actually did not die in the woods. Finally, when the child becomes old enough, she begins to worry. She doesn't want her child to be so vulnerable; and doesn't want the child to experience the things that are "out there in the world". So finally, she has progressed into The Witch.
At least, that's how I figure it must have gone. I wanted to find a simple, logical progression of the characters changing and sort of blending into one seamlessly. I wonder, though, about the plot holes. For example, if all the female characters are virtually the same, how do you explain the Witch mentioning her mother severally times, when in fact neither Little Red or Cinderella's mother is still living, and the Baker's Wife's mother is never mentioned? I would assume that the Witch inherited the garden while still in her 'Cinderella' stage.
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ConverseSneaker
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| MusicalGal1194 wrote: |
Little Red is a very naive girl, and sort of spoiled. Which means that after her mother dies, she could essentially grow up to be Cinderella;
if all the female characters are virtually the same, how do you explain the Witch mentioning her mother severally times, when in fact neither Little Red or Cinderella's mother is still living, and the Baker's Wife's mother is never mentioned? I would assume that the Witch inherited the garden while still in her 'Cinderella' stage. |
Two things I never fully realized. Red does start to act more like Cinderella at the end, doesn't she? Thank you for that, it was a whack to the head and it got to me. 
And that basically all the female leads have no mothers anymore(even Rapunzel's birth mother is dead, although she is adopted now)
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Baker
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As far as plotholes... I don't think they're all literally the same character. They just all represent the similar progression. Cinderella's mother traditionally dies when she was very young - about seven - and I don't think Little Red is that young. Their stories are obviously not all the same, so their mothers didn't necessarily have to all die at the same stages of life.
I also was just thinking about the fact that nearly every mother figure in the story dies. Cinderella's Mother starts the show dead; the Witch disappears and essentially dies; the Baker's Wife dies; Jack's Mother dies; the Stepmother gets lost and starves to death with the rest of the royal family; Little Red's mother and Granny die; Rapunzel dies... and in the end, the one who has been the child the whole time (Little Red - Rapunzel and Cinderella both take on mother roles by the middle of Act II) takes on a motherly role by "adopting" Jack. I wonder how long Cinderella and Little Red would live if this pattern kept up...
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SomeoneLikeYou
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| Baker wrote: | | the Stepmother gets lost and starves to death |
When does it say that?
Is that what Florinda and Lucinda mean when they say "and eat first" in the Finale?
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ConverseSneaker
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| SomeoneLikeYou wrote: | | Baker wrote: | | the Stepmother gets lost and starves to death |
When does it say that?
Is that what Florinda and Lucinda mean when they say "and eat first" in the Finale? |
It's indicated by that, yes.
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Baker
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Yep, the Finale:
Stepmother: "When going to hide, know how to get there."
Cinderella's Father: "And how to get back."
Florinda/Lucinda: "And eat first."
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MusicalGal1194
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| Baker wrote: | Yep, the Finale:
Stepmother: "When going to hide, know how to get there."
Cinderella's Father: "And how to get back."
Florinda/Lucinda: "And eat first." |
Ah yes! I was wondering if that would come up. After my 2nd or 3rd time watching the show, I wondered if they meant that the stepsisters/stepmother and Cindy's dad had died. Turns out, that is implied!
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SomeoneLikeYou
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So many things in musicals are implied. Very little is ever truly confirmed. That's part of what makes it cool, though. You can imagine for yourself how things turned out.
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Baker
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Really, when you think about it, there's only one death that we actually see, and that's Jack's Mother. The Narrator, Rapunzel, Granny, Red's mother, the royal family... all die offstage. The Baker's Wife might be arguable, but since the first time most people see it they're not sure if she just died or not, I'd say that we don't actually see her die (depending on the production and how it's staged).
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MusicalGal1194
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True, true. I also think that many a time, people see the show and aren't certain whether or not the Witch dies or simply disappears. To tell you the truth, I myself am still confused. I think that she died, but who really knows? Not I. Perhaps I'm just an idiot and there's been a million threads about this that I missed, but I'd like to think that she died.
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Baker
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She says, "...safe inside that world that I'm from!" and "Mother, here I come!" and, since they're witches - generally evil in fairy tales - and her mother is dead, it kind of sounds like she descends into hell... although I don't think she has actually died, just decided she's fed up with the idiots in this world so she'll go there instead.
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MusicalGal1194
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Whoooooaaa.  I had never thought of it that way!!! That's flipping sweet!
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Tumnus1031
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| Quote: | Yep, the Finale:
Stepmother: "When going to hide, know how to get there."
Cinderella's Father: "And how to get back."
Florinda/Lucinda: "And eat first." |
THANK YOU for saying that. I was so freaking confused about whether or not the royal familiy died...
Wow, now that you think about it, the only characters who survived are the Princes, Jack, Little Red, Cinderella, and the Baker. That's pretty damn depressing.
I actually remember reading somewhere that the finale before "Children Will Listen" is supposedly ALL the dead characters coming back to life and sharing their lessons. I'd say that confirms the Princes' and Witch's death, but the Princes come onstage with Snow White and Sleeping Beauty, and the Witch never actually states any sort of lesson. Does she come back from hell, I wonder?
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Baker
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The Witch learns that "children will listen."
In the OBC, I think the Princes represent the fact that no matter what happens, humanity isn't all good - not everyone can learn the lesson that's right in front of their face.
In the Revival, Snow White and Sleeping Beauty don't make an appearance, and the Princes say, "The higher the throne, the longer the fall." So they do learn a lesson in this version.
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Tumnus1031
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Haha, I just ignored the Witch and her lesson because she sang it. I suppose that would mean she died too? But then that would mean the princes died as well...
| Quote: | | In the Revival, Snow White and Sleeping Beauty don't make an appearance, and the Princes say, "The higher the throne, the longer the fall." So they do learn a lesson in this version. |
I personally take the OBC--instead of the revival--as Into the Woods "canon," if you will. Just my take on it, of course.
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Luc
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This is really amazing, guys!! 
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Baker
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People don't have to die to learn their lessons. The Baker, Cinderella, Little Red, and Jack all learn lessons as well.
I was merely stating another interpretation. I don't think you can limit any play or musical to a "canon" unless we specifically say from the start that we're only looking at one version or another - different interpretations will confirm that yes, the Witch does die by the way they handle the disappearance at the end of Last Midnight, for example. Different interpretations will choose to imply a little stronger about Jack/Red and Cindy/Baker relationships at the end of the show. There's no one set way to perform any show.
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Tumnus1031
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| Baker wrote: | People don't have to die to learn their lessons. The Baker, Cinderella, Little Red, and Jack all learn lessons as well.
I was merely stating another interpretation. I don't think you can limit any play or musical to a "canon" unless we specifically say from the start that we're only looking at one version or another - different interpretations will confirm that yes, the Witch does die by the way they handle the disappearance at the end of Last Midnight, for example. Different interpretations will choose to imply a little stronger about Jack/Red and Cindy/Baker relationships at the end of the show. There's no one set way to perform any show. |
I hate it when people make me feel stupid. 
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Baker
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Nonononono, I didn't at all mean to make you feel stupid! That's just how I feel, just like how you feel the OBC is the canon.
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MusicalGal1194
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Slightly off topic, but I find it very interesting that, at the start of Act II, the Witch says "The royal family?! I wouldn't count on them to snuff out a rat!". It's intriguing, since Rapunzel is technically married to her Prince, which would make The Witch part of the royal family, just as Cindy's father is.
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Alexia Dark
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I don't really agree with that. The Witch may be Rapunzel's adopted mother and have her best interests in mind, but clearly the Prince hates her, and both he and Rapunzel seem to view her as a kidnapper rather than a mother by the end of Act 1. In fact, and this is from a creatively objective, IMHO in my own head kind of thinking, the reason The Witch wasn't probably hunted down now that they know that she doesn't have her powers is either fear of her family's retribution, or the Prince lost interest in Rapunzel so quickly that he just didn't care.
Oh yeah, this fanfic is so happening .
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MusicalGal1194
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I absolutely agree with you. I just meant that, it was ironic that the Witch said that, when in fact if her relationship with the Prince/Rapunzel was better, she could technically be considered part of the royal family (in a by marriage; family tree sort of way). However, you're completely right in saying that emotionally, by Act II the Witch was no longer part of Rapunzel's family. ((I hope to play the Witch some day, so seeing your input on that aspect of her role is really great; since you've played the part before!))
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Jman383
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Hey guys... so I was reading this thread and it made me think of a very similar theory a bunch of my friends had when we were analyzing the show.
Our theory was that everything in ITW repeats itself. For example, when the B. Wife dies the Baker then becomes the single father with a son, just as the Mysterious Man was with the Baker when he was a child. Also, the Baker begins telling the story at the end, just as the Narrator does in the beginning (symbolizing the fact that everything repeats itself).
Also, the Witch became an exact representation of what her mother did to her with Rapunzel. Because the Witch's mother tried hiding her from the world, the Witch did the same with her daughter.
This also feeds into what the Witch tells the group during "The Last Midnight". She says:
"You're all liars and theives,
Like his father,
Like his son will be, too-
Oh, why bother?
You'll just do what you do."
I probably sound stupid as I'm not remembering everything we figured out, but it's just what I can remember, and this thread made me think of it.
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Baker
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Well, you're definitely onto something, but I don't know if the intentions were for everything to just repeat itself or to show progression through similar events.
For example, the Mysterious Man's wife died, his daughter was kidnapped, and he was left with just his son. What did he do? He abandoned his child. Then the Baker's wife dies and he is left with just his son. What does he do? Although he is tempted to abandon his child like his father, he sticks it out.
The Narrator is a symbol of a father figure, to all of the characters really. The Baker taking on the Narrator's role to tell his son the story is his way of finally taking on a paternal role.
Interestingly enough, it's the Mysterious Man's daughter who eventually abandons her children, not his son (depending on how you choose to interpret the disappearance of Rapunzel's twins).
As far as the Witch... did her mother try to hide her from the world? I never thought so. I always thought the Witch's mother was somewhat detached, and that's what made the Witch overbearing when it came to Rapunzel. I could completely wrong though.
I think a big part of the Witch's character is that she is, in fact, wrong. I know, some will argue that the point of the Witch is that not all "bad" people are completely "bad," but hear me out. The Witch believes that humans are destructive and that they just make the same mistakes over and over and over, as demonstrated in the Last Midnight quote you gave. But the thing is... they don't make the same mistakes over and over and over. They make better choices and they learn from their past, shown especially through the Baker's choices in the latter half of Act II.
It would be interesting to look and see if there are more paralleling choices between the other characters... I'm betting Jack follows a pattern too, and there are probably more things that connect Little Red, Cinderella, the Baker's Wife, Rapunzel, and the Witch. Right now though... I think I've written enough haha.
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lastmidnight.alex
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| Baker wrote: | | She says, "...safe inside that world that I'm from!" and "Mother, here I come!" and, since they're witches - generally evil in fairy tales - and her mother is dead, it kind of sounds like she descends into hell... although I don't think she has actually died, just decided she's fed up with the idiots in this world so she'll go there instead. |
Actually the rest of that same line she says right after that goes:
"Better Ugly and Spurned with my powers returned."
I think that was to imply that she throws away her beans to try to reverse her mother's curse because she feels she's better off being ugly with powers then pretty with no powers. That's what she means by being safe inside the world that she's from because basically she has "been there done that." But unfortunately it also causes her to die.
The Witch does die because she throws away the beans which reverses her mother's curse and it actually was to cause her to blow up. But now most versions just make her vanish because they don't put in an explosion. That line you mentioned is from the Revival but in the Original version, and on the PBS DVD, she says:
"Alright Mother when?! I've lost the beans again, punish me the way you did then! Give me claws and a hunch, just away from this bunch!" That's why she sings Last Midnight because she kills herself by throwing away the magic beans because she thinks that everyone is going to die anyway from the Giantess.
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Baker
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Good call on the quote being from the revival... sometimes I get those two verses mixed up. None of the other changed lyrics, just that last bit of Last Midnight.
I'm still pretty sure the Witch doesn't die. She throws away the beans, leading to her eventual return to ugliness (seen in the revival), gains her powers back, and uses them to vanish - you say she explodes, but there's certainly no explosion in the OBC (I forget if there's one in the Revival).
I see what you mean by interpretting "safe inside the world that I'm from" as being her world of ugliness... I'm not sure how I feel about it. Technically she was born beautiful, and so would be from beauty, although the world around her was ugly (witchcraft, probably shunned for it, possibly her mother was physically ugly, etc.). I've still always thought it was a reference to descending into hell, especially since the picture book describes it as such. Not the original source, I know, but I like that interpretation.
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lastmidnight.alex
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| Baker wrote: | Good call on the quote being from the revival... sometimes I get those two verses mixed up. None of the other changed lyrics, just that last bit of Last Midnight.
I'm still pretty sure the Witch doesn't die. She throws away the beans, leading to her eventual return to ugliness (seen in the revival), gains her powers back, and uses them to vanish - you say she explodes, but there's certainly no explosion in the OBC (I forget if there's one in the Revival).
I see what you mean by interpretting "safe inside the world that I'm from" as being her world of ugliness... I'm not sure how I feel about it. Technically she was born beautiful, and so would be from beauty, although the world around her was ugly (witchcraft, probably shunned for it, possibly her mother was physically ugly, etc.). I've still always thought it was a reference to descending into hell, especially since the picture book describes it as such. Not the original source, I know, but I like that interpretation. |
To tell the truth I don't really know if she does die but I just read somewhere about that the play that she exploded and since mostly everyone else in the play dies I just thought that's what happened.
I just said that on here because I kind of like that interpretation on the Witch that she kills herself because she is tired of failing and being around these people that drive her crazy and also wants her powers back because she can't control anything. That's what I always thought the song "Last Midnight" was about. That's why I like the Witch's character because the irony is that even though she is/was bad she is the only character in the show that tells the truth but lacks sensibility the other character have (ex. thenBaker's Wife) because she gets easily lost in her own anger.
I also heard somewhere that she collided with her mother's soul which cause the curse to reverse and kills her for loosing the rest of the beans. I like that idead too.
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AudreyTD
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This may be a unfortunate injection of logic into the creative analyses, but in terms of the characterisations, there _will_ be repetition because the original role of fairytales was pretty much sex education. As such, the characters will, out of necessity - and truth to the original texts - have to follow similar arcs.
I _do_ like the "ages of life" interpretation, but I think it is just one of many that a director might choose to employ.
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