[The_Wicked]

I have a theory. It would seem (to me) that Elphaba might just be the most vocally demanding part in recent/ever musical history. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a belter role that is harder. Comments?

[MBoy]

I totally agree . . . no other role incorporates THREE power-belt songs, along with countless other numbers in the show . . . it has to be a vocal strain to who ever plays the role.

[Christine_Colgate]

yes i do concur with that statement but i also believe G(a)linda is also a major demanding role. seriously have you seen the notes she has to sing for like no one mourns the wicked and several other songs. hell i know my throat would be killing if i had to sing that high every night 6-8 times a week.

but yes elphaba is a major powerhouse vocal i know i cant sing her vocals without warming up and i really cant be sick at all. if im sick im screwed.

[Brother Marvin Hinten, S.]

Either way, once this is all done, it'll be rough to put together a revival of "Wicked" without robots who can hit the notes.

[LoneWanderer]

Again, I know I said I was gone...but I was directed to this thread and told to post.

This is kinda a rediculous comment and um...I'm pretty sure those making the statements arn't extremely familiar with roles in musicals (I don't claim to be either, but I do know I don't agree with the statement just the same).

While elphaba as performed by Menzel was a vocal strain, this is because she did not belt properly. She screamed many of the notes and it ruined her voice over time. Because of this, many girls have gotten the idea thats the "right" way to sound while performing...to most trained singers it sounds very strained and not good (because it is in fact strained and bad for your voice). Elphaba is the cause of many girls messing up there voices...but it is because of the way they are belting. If properly trained, the range should not be impossible for a person with the right starting range to perform (not everyone has this, but many people who don't would like to think they do...hence people thinking this part is harder than it is).

Range is not the only thing that makes a part hard by any means, but if you want to stick to vocally demanding range as a requirement then there are still better examples. As I am male I'm much more familiar with the male voice and what it is that's difficult to sing. By far the most testing parts to my knowledge are Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar and Freddie in Chess. Both parts requires a rock sound, which means straining your voice (Elphaba does NOT required a strained sound, I have heard it sung well, belted, and still not screamy sounding in a few recordings...however most I have heard were...pretty screamy). Both parts require streching to a range that is hard for anyone with hte proper sound for the part to do. Both parts would sound silly if the person singing them had too light a voice and hit the notes too effortly as they are in a rock style. Judas hits a high E flat at one point if I remember correctly, and this note is basically meant to just be screamed out. Few people have managed to play these parts in a proffesional production (meaning many performances for a conciderable length of time) without having serious vocal problems. I do not know how long people stay in these parts on average compared to most other lead roles, but I have the feeling if one looked at the data it would be quite a significant difference.

Also, it is important to realize that acting is important. It is theatre that is musical, not music that is ...theatre...ized. The acting and presentation of the character are fundamental, the singing should bring across this character. Elphaba is by no means a challenging part to act, many of her lines are very cliche and interpretation is not really required at all.

~The Lone Wanderer

[Bex]

[Timmy_Wishes he was Quast]

In agreement male singers (in my opinion) are much more aware of their range, in terms of the song. More often thna not i will hear a woman screching to reach said high notes! However correct posture and breathing would enable a competent singer to achieve these notes. I know that when i first started singing (after my voice broke) i was a low bass, and now my vocal range has risen to that of the baritone whilst retaining the low bass portion and the development of a falestto voice. I think this shows that the proper training will allow anyone to achievce the range. And frankly elphaba is no acting challenge, yes her range may be huge but any professional actor should be able to train themsleves to repeat it night after night without damaging their voice.

[Kragey]

LW took the words right out of my mouth. Bravo!

[The_Wicked]

I don't think I could disagree more. True, training is almost a necessity but the part of Elphaba is a more or less speech-level singing (SLS) role. That's why it doesn't sound "correct" to many classically trained people. I agree that Idina probably did ruin her voice in that role (tragic really) but I have heard others (Shoshana Bean and Saycon Sengbloh in particular) who belt the role healthily and it sounds just as powerful without "screaming" it. I do not think it would sound correct at all if the last portion of the song (the confirmation of Elphaba's new view on life which is a HUGE emotional turning point for the character) was done in head voice or mixed voice. It is possible to belt healthily in chest voice for the character of Elphaba and that is why I am saying it is a vocally challenging role. And to say that I am unfamiliar with many musical theatre roles is a completely unfounded statement (I'm not getting catty here I just don't see where you got that impression). If you look through musical history, Elphaba seems to me to be the most challenging role to take on vocally. And to say that not a lot of acting is required in Elphaba's character, is also a rather unfair statement. There is so much one can do with that character it is ridiculous. That's like saying Eponine in Les Miserables doesn't require a lot of acting. In comparison, I think that Elphaba is an even more challenging role acting-wise. There is so much inner-conflict there it's not even funny. First, she arrives at Shiz to take care of Nessa and someone (Madame Morrible) finally takes notice of her and sees something valuable in her. All Elphaba really wants is to be accepted but human (or munchkin) nature shuts out anyone who is different. There are so many examples buzzing around in my poor little mind right now it is driving me crazy. Sorry, I love this character and I think it is one of the juciest roles (vocally and acting-wise) out there and I'm a guy! Peace.

[LoneWanderer]

Alrighty...did you read my post? Yes, it's belty, but you can belt properly and if you do so it is not vocally challenging. Sung properly does not mean sung lightly, it can still be aggressive and loud without being bad for your voice. I don't understand how this sentance works:

[The REAL Ciaron]

[The_Wicked]

I did read your post but I disagree with your statement. Elphaba's notes are quite high and quite difficult to sing (properly or otherwise) no matter how trained you are. Belting healthily and belting easily are two wildly different things. Kim is another very juicy role, TRC. However, vocally I think that she is easier to handle. It is a different style but I think it is possible to compare the two. Anyway, LoneWanderer, do you have an example of belting properly among Broadway singers? I am not trying to be snotty here or anything I am just wondering who you think belts properly. I am absolutely astonished though, as to how many people think you don't need to have a strong acting ability to play Elphaba. I have always thought there was so much background there and so much to do with the part... And if you want me to list my ENTIRE musical repetoire I guess I'll give it a shot. Off the top of my head... Les Miserables, Phantom of the Opera, The Wild Party, The Lion King, Elton John's Aida, Fiddler on the Roof, Crazy for You, Annie, Miss Saigon, The Music Man, Beauty and the Beast, Avenue Q, The Fantasticks, 25th Annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, Joseph..., The Secret Garden, A New Brain, Little shop of Horrors, The Producers, Cabaret, Forever Plaid, Ragtime, Chicago, RENT, You're a Good Man Charlie Brown, Hot Mikado, Bat Boy, Wonderful Town, Cats, Copacabana, The King and I, Oklahoma, South Pacific, Hairspray, Suessical, Once Upon a Mattress, Jekyll and Hyde, Children of Eden, Godspell, A Chorus Line, Pippin, Spamalot, The Last 5 Years, Tick Tick Boom, The Wiz, The Wizard of Oz, Thouroghly Modern Millie, Hello Dolly, Grease, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, The Scarlet Pimpernel, Snoopy, and if you wanna talk Sondheim: Sweeney Todd? (Johanna, the Beggar Woman, or Mrs. Lovett while both fun parts are not nearly as vocally demanding and as hard to act as Elphaba. Although Mrs. Lovett still has her inner desire for Sweeney all the while knowing his wife is dead, playing insane isn't particularly hard I have found.) Into The Woods? (Rapunzel, Cinderella, Little Red, and the Baker's Wife just don't grap me as ridiculously challenging parts vocally or otherwise. The Witch is a nice role but still her emotions are pretty standard and none of her songs are ridiculously tricky.) West Side Story? (Maria is a good role but Anita is better and neither has to be amazing vocally. Anita is more dancing and Maria is your sterotypical ingenue who falls for her Romeo and screws everything up for herself). Company? The list goes on. I haven't had a chance to listen to Caroline or Change but I will ask my friend to burn it for me. I just think that to be sung properly, Elphaba needs a very very talented person to pull off the emotions behind the songs and convey the true meaning of Stephen Schwartz's beautiful lyrics. Defying Gravity is just such a powerful turning point in Elphaba's life that to have a poor actress portraying her breaking free of the bonds of society, would not do justice to such a heroine as Elphaba.

[The REAL Ciaron]

[DarthRevan00m9]

Ok first off why are we comparing acting the character when we can't act Elphaba and yet we can act all these other roles. I don't think anyone will realize how deep or shallow Elphaba's character really is until the play rights are out (In twenty billion years) but I have to agree that Elphaba would be difficult to do. She isn't this super shallow character who says exactly what's on her mind (Like Eponine). There is some inner termoil in Elphaba and Glinda too.

[The_Wicked]

What in the world makes the Baker's Wife even remotely challenging? I'm 18 by the way. Mrs. Lovett is an awesome part I agree and it is a challenging part but not as challenging in my opinion as Elphaba. Vocally, I can sing most of her songs in her key and acting-wise she really doesn't seem all that hard. What about Mrs. Lovett is hard to act? And you don't like Stephen Schwartz's lyrics? I think they are genius. Except for the whole "Definish chance" "Disgustingified" deal. But I think it passes the story along quite nicely and they are all very clever.

[The_Wicked]

What in the world makes the Baker's Wife even remotely challenging? I'm 18 by the way. Mrs. Lovett is an awesome part I agree and it is a challenging part but not as challenging in my opinion as Elphaba. Vocally, I can sing most of her songs in her key and acting-wise she really doesn't seem all that hard. What about Mrs. Lovett is hard to act? And you don't like Stephen Schwartz's lyrics? I think they are genius. Except for the whole "Definish chance" "Disgustingified" deal. But I think it passes the story along quite nicely and they are all very clever.

[seeemilysing]

I realize I should stay quiet and not say anything here...I'm TOTALLY not trying to start more up cuz I'm nkot involved in this but...I read this and I just wanna put my 2 cents in...

You really think playing a green girl who is sad that her dad and the guy she likes don't like her and wants to save animals and belts some loud high notes is harder to play than....A woman who is so obsessesively in love with a man she lies to him about his wife being dead and although she knows whats she's doing is wrong she even assists him in killing random people to help him seek revenge on the word to help win him over, while always having to worry that he could find out his wife that he was and still is in love with is alive? Not to mention she sings some of the trickiest rythms and most bizaar key changes in any musical...That is verdy verdy weird to me.

Don't get me wrong....I LOVE Wicked. Love it. LOVE IT (though its not my favorite). I would KILL to be in Wicked as I'm sure millions of people would, but just cuz its FUN. Its not a terribly challenging show. Sure its harder than say...Guys and Dolls...heh. But its no Sondhiem show. As for difficult female charaters...How many people can sing Glitter and be Gay and Make Our Garden Grow (Candide), or Pirates of Penzance, or Street Scene??? And I actually have to say that I think Glinda is the more challanging vocal role. Elphie kinda sits in one spot...Belting up around E, you get that down you're set. Glinda has legit soprano stuff as well as loooow stuff as well as the belting stuff, you gotta be pretty talented to be able to sound good on all the different levels she sings. Hoist me up in a bubble and let me be Glinda, thats where its at!!!

[The_Wicked]

I've already said my piece on this and I'm not gonna start a war over this. Mrs. Lovett might have some difficult key changes and a few exact rhythms she has to keep up with, but I am a guy and I can sing most of her notes (in chest voice) in her key. She is an alto through and through. Galinda is a tricky role as well but I think you are really undermining the situation of Elphaba. And, sorry, where in the world did you get the idea Mrs. Lovett knows what she is doing is wrong? SHE comes up with the idea to keep business going. Mrs. Lovett is, quite possibly, the most insane character in all of Musical Theatre and her motivations and intentions are usually all to clear throughout the musical. Not a lot of wiggle room. That being said, she is one of my favorite characters in all of musical theatre as well. Moreso than Elphaba. But I completely disagree with the statement that she is just a "green girl who is sad that her dad and the guy she likes don't like her and wants to save animals and belts some loud high notes". It's not Dawson's Creek. This girl has never been loved by anyone throughout her whole life because of one physical trait that she has no power over and finally, all at once, she finds her true love and her best friend (a love triangle that is the most enigmatic I have yet to come by). If you read between the lines and look past the emerald sunglasses and , this is a pretty deep musical. I hate that so many people don't realize that because of all the Wicked fangirls out there with no head voice singing Defying Gravity in the dressing rooms giving the impression it is a teeny-bopper fad musical. Look at the story. Listen to the lyrics. And put yourself in her shoes. She is tortured.

[seeemilysing]

Not trying to argue, I said, I LOOOOOVE Wicked, I really really really do, I've seen it 4 times. I just don't think its one of the "deepest" musicals out there. Ah well different opinions!!! (btw, I co-directed a kickass production of Sweeney Todd last year thats why I'm so into it, cuz I still have all the character study stuff in my head that I did with the actors )...But I also have to say that I think Glinda is the harder role to act because you have to do this flip-flopping between air-head and love sick and confused. I think I have some kind of weird ass Glinda obsession....That might not be normal...We'll just agree to disagree yes??

[DarthRevan00m9]

[The_Wicked]

I totally understand about Sweeney Todd. My friend is directing Sweeney this summer and I am STOKED. Granted, Mrs. Lovett is the best part in the whole show but I don't quite have the correct um... plumbing to play that. So I am gonna try for Toby and see what happens. LOVE Toby. Anyway, I whole-heartedly agree with you that Glinda is a very hard role to act because she actually has to evolve throughout the musical and her emotions are pretty complex. And by the way DarthRevan00m9... I like Whoppers the best.

[TheNextTenMinutes]

If Elphaba were the most vocally challening role, like, EVER, like, omfg, then they wouldn't keep hiring people who can't sing properly (Idina, Shoshana, Eden) to play it.

[Joe Valjean]

I agree, Elphaba is the most vocally demanding role in musical theatre - closely followed by Lucy in Jekyll and Hyde. She has some massive belting numbers in Bring on the Men, Someone Like You, In His Eyes and A New Life. After that, Eve/Mama Noah in CHildren of Eden is pretty hard, Spark of Creation and Aint it Good are both pretty testing.

[what_the_heck013]

[LoneWanderer]

[Kragey]

Personally, I think Lucy's part in J&H is pretty friggin' easy to sing.

[LoneWanderer]

[seeemilysing]

Yeah....Lucy is pretty freakin easy to sing. I think Elphaba is easy to sing too though. "WATCH ME BELT REALLY LOUD" It's so sad how people care more about belting high and loud than good singing technique. It's the American Idol syndrome. Makes a singer sad. I worked my tail off for the music in Candide when I was Cunegonde and I can sing Elphaba stuff when I'm just waking up in the morning or I have a cold but which part gets the recognition?? When I do concerts and I do defying gravity and glitter and be gay which song gets the standing O?? Bleegh....

[TheNextTenMinutes]

Good point re: the American Idol syndrome. People are more interested in hearing people scream Es or do pop riffs than they are in hearing some genuine talent. This is a shame but if it means I don't have idiots in the audience when I eventually play Joanna in Company (because Sondheim is like soooooo easy apparently) then that makes me happy. Everyone else will be off watching Christina Aguilera or whoever they want to play Elphaba next give herself nodules. Awesome.
If belting high is a pre-requisite for difficult vocals, then Elphaba still isn't the most vocally challenging role because there are oodles of parts that require higher belts. Sorry, but I have yet to hear a really good justification for why it's THE MOST difficult role.
Don't get me wrong, I still really enjoy Wicked. I just think glorifying it is part of the problem that everyone has with it.

[DramaRobin2002]

Since when is belting high and often the requisite for a vocally difficult role? Seriously, I will freely admit that I'm no expert on judging what generally difficult roles are and even I know that Elphaba is not all the hard if you're properly trained. Her songs wouldn't be a cakewalk for me, but that's because I'm not a properly trained belter. That being said, wouldn't a vocally challenging role be mostly determined on the amount of singing and the rhythm/sudden key changes and such? Like, Evita would be challenging because she sings 90% of the show. Mrs. Lovett is challenging because the songs themselves are not easy. Actingwise, I have to agree Elphaba is also not difficult. You know who she is, she is blantently forward about who she is and she's not confused about who she is. The hardest part about playing that would probably be her slight descent into madness during No Good Deed. But, like Eponine, you can pretty much bet the audience is going to already be there with the character because they can relate to something like unrequited love or being an outcast because of differences. But with a role like Mrs. Lovett, you have to walk that fine line between alienating the audience because you're grinding people into meat pies and endearing the character too much to the audience. She has to be insane enough to do what she does, but not so insane that she isn't fully responsible for and in charge of her actions. She has to be completely infatuated with Sweeney while still being terrified of him. By the end, you have to somehow get the audience to feel something when she goes into the oven without really having many already written out likable characteristics. At least, that's what I got from the role when I saw the show. I'm really no Sweeney expert.

[lttlmissxx]

I think that everybody has put forward very good points however I believe that it is not possible to determine which character is the hardest to play vocally and acting wise. This is because everybody will Judge their opions on thier own weaknesses and strengths. By this I mean somebody who finds it much more difficult to belt will think that Elphaba is the most challenging, whereas people who will find rythm tricky, or it doesnt come as naturally (or dont feel so comfortable with tricky rythms) as belting a song will feel Mrs Lovette's part is much harder.

Its the same with acting, everybody finds it easier to play certain parts then others, this is due to who we are and out own personal experiences. Personally I find more complex easier to play then simple characters as thier is more to work with, others may disagree.

Therefore it will always be impossible to determine which west end part is the hardest, as everybody is different and has different strengths. And these strengths and weakness's are what will at the end of the day determine somebodys opinon on such a topic!

[convict24601]

I completely agree. For example, I know some people who are completely untrained and can hit high tenor notes with ease in chest voice....others....need a few lessons. The same i guess can be said for Elphaba...some untrained women can hit the notes by screaming them in chest, others cant get past a Bb. In the theatre industry, if you got it, you got it. If you dont, you dont.

[janne716]

Just another person's perspective. I think as written, Elphaba's part is not that terribly difficult. I think the problem comes in when you consider the standard that Idina set for the role on the soundtrack. If someone else had originated Elpaba and sang the high notes in head voice, it probably wouldn't sound strange to us at all. For me personally, my voice sounds completely different between chest voice and head voice, and sometimes I find myself straining in chest voice just to maintain uniformity in the tone. I think Idina may do the same. I have heard footage of Kristy Cates (currently in Chicago), and she doesn't seem to strain nearly as much as Idina, but she is just as effective. Honestly, hearing Idina in "Rent" I don't know how she has any voice left at all. She tends to make her parts more difficult on herself by belting EVERYTHING.
I personally think that G(a)linda is more vocally challenging, because she has more territory to cover stylistically than Elphaba. She starts out with straight opera, and there is NO way to belt the notes she hits during "No One Mourns the Wicked" and the note at the end of "Thank Goodness." Then "Popular" is a very typical Broadway tune, very clear and characterized. Then "For Good" is almost an alto pop ballad.
As far as acting is concerned, I think musical ability should take precedence over acting ability, simply because a bad singer can ruin the entire show. Most people can half-ass their way through lines, but you can't really do that for the songs. In general, musical characters are pretty shallow, but I think that is done for a purpose. The music is intended to convey the emotions that the acting may not. I have been in a few shows where acting ability was more important to the director than singing ability, and people will never walk away from a musical talking about how bad the acting is unless all the singing is good. Whenever someone is cast in a singing role and can't pull it off well, it's unfair to everyone, the audience, the rest of the cast, and most of all the performer his/herself.
Overall, I think Elphaba is a challenging role, simply because of the number of "power songs" she has, but it is not the most challenging or difficult. It is only as difficult to sing as the person singing it wants it to be.

Just my $.02.

[TheNextTenMinutes]

[jadenbelle]

I may be the only one who thinks this, but I think the part gets it merit from the endurance that is needed to do the part for 8 shows a week, not really the difficulty of her vocals. I agree with the point about singing going along with acting