danc4him
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Does it follow the Bible?I think what Andrew Lloyd Weber was doing really did glorify God, but in a way I wonder if he even read the Bible to get the real story! Jesus does not fall in love with any one! He came for one purpose and that was to save the lost! If he fell in love with Mary...then that would be totally wordly and of the flesh!
I know there is a diffrent version on which it does follow the bible pretty well.
I do not like this version very much.......just because of that fact!~
Thanks!
Love, danc4him
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ultra_lilac
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Yeah. In the Bible Herod never asked Jesus to walk across his swimming pool.
It was a actually a hot tub.
What was ALW thinking?
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Theaterfan101
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| ultra_lilac wrote: | Yeah. In the Bible Herod never asked Jesus to walk across his swimming pool.
It was a actually a hot tub.
What was ALW thinking? |
 <3
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The Pirate King
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Have you even seen or heard anything from this show? Jesus doesn't fall in love with anyone, I promise you.
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Beagle On Stage
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Almost invariably, I've found that when someone finds "Jesus Christ Superstar" offensive or disruptive, they have not actually done their homework. This is just one example.
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Brother Marvin Hinten, S.
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In fact, I seem to remember someone pointing out several Biblical instances that JCS matched perfectly, with verses next to the events. I'm compiling my own list, but if someone wants to help, that'd be real nice.
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krisavalon
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I'm not aware of a different version, but most of the lines from JC Superstar were taken from (or are variations of) verses in the gospels. There is some creative license, of course. According to the Bible, it was Pilate's wife who had the dream, and not Pontius Pilate. There is no scripture (obviously) about Judas appearing posthumously to Jesus, but that was thrown in there just to have a place for the song, which was originally released as an audio single. There is no indication in JC Superstar of Jesus actually being in love with Mary Magdalene or anyone else for that matter, but it does imply that Mary was a prostitute, which is not Biblically accurate.
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Beagle On Stage
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| krisavalon wrote: | | There is no scripture (obviously) about Judas appearing posthumously to Jesus, but that was thrown in there just to have a place for the song, which was originally released as an audio single. |
But he doesn't appear posthumously to Jesus in the show. Many productions have him onstage at the same time as Jesus, but the work itself gives the song to the "Voice of Judas," ie, the actor is done playing the role and now performs the song not in character but as the "everyman" of today. The song refers to events that won't happen for hundreds of years - it's clearly not actually Judas making a guest appearance from the other side, later that day.
| krisavalon wrote: | | it does imply that Mary was a prostitute, which is not Biblically accurate. |
But it is tradition. And since the show accepts the tradition of Mary Magdalene as one and the same with Mary of Bethany, the sister of Martha and Lazarus, it's valid enough to be included also. (It also makes sense aesthetically to connect the two separate annointing-of-Jesus episodes, which JCS does in "What's the Buzz/Strange Thing, Mystifying" and "Everything's Alright.")
Strange how it's always the adherence to the tradition that she was the nameless sinful woman that upsets people, and not the one that she was Mary of Bethany. If Biblical accuracy was really the issue, both would be under scrutiny. I think it's not so much that people are upset about the degree of Biblical accuracy, as it is that they have set their minds to protesting the show, and anything involving a prostitute makes good fodder to throw around and act offended by.
Besides, does the show really imply that she's a prostitute after all? Biblically, Jesus released her from demonic possession, which could easily be what phrases like "women of her kind" refer to. The only thing it wouldn't necessarily cover would be "her profession" ... but logically, Judas, who is in this scene (Biblically) wearing the mask of a holy pilgrim shocked by the extravagance of her wasted perfume, is more likely referring to her being a perfumer (which Mary of Bethany / Magdalene apparently is in the Bible), since perfume was a frivolous luxury of the time that would be far over the heads of poor people like Jesus and the Apostles. (Again, many productions opt to have her dressed like a tramp, but this doesn't mean that the WORK necessarily portrays her as such.)
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krisavalon
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Interesting points about Judas. I'm not too familiar with the early productions.
I'm not personally offended by the implications that Mary was a prostitute or any other facet of JC Superstar, but I was pointing out that regardless of what certain traditions may hold, it isn't Biblically accurate (since that is the point of the topic). Nowhere does scripture indicate Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, and such an identification was never popularized until Pope Gregory I advanced the idea in a sermon about redemption. Again, I don't have a problem with this identification being used for the sake of parable, but since it was asked how much of JC Superstar is Biblically accurate (and not, how much of JC Superstar is "traditionally" accurate), I felt that that was certainly worth noting. And as far as the implications in JC Superstar about Mary being a prostitute, you forgot the most obvious example, from "I Don't Know How To Love Him," in the line "I've had so many men before in very many ways..."
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Beagle On Stage
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I could tell you didn't have a problem with it. I was just saying that the people who always claim to be upset by that are usually working from an agenda rather than a real principle, because they never seem to have an issue with other traditions portrayed in the show. It's just that that's the one that's easiest to make a scene over, so it's the one the haters run with.
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krisavalon
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| Beagle On Stage wrote: | | I could tell you didn't have a problem with it. I was just saying that the people who always claim to be upset by that are usually working from an agenda rather than a real principle, because they never seem to have an issue with other traditions portrayed in the show. It's just that that's the one that's easiest to make a scene over, so it's the one the haters run with. |
Haha very true, and I think some people are just extremely uncomfortable with anything that portrays Judas as being even mildly sympathetic.
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Jekkienumber24601
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yes. there's nothing wrong at all with Superstar. if anything Godspell is the sacraligious one, but Christians are more willing to accept that, just because of the history and title of Jesus Christ Superstar. many have not seen a good production, but I encourage many doubters to see the Ted Neeley tour.
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krisavalon
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| Jekkienumber24601 wrote: | | yes. there's nothing wrong at all with Superstar. if anything Godspell is the sacraligious one, but Christians are more willing to accept that, just because of the history and title of Jesus Christ Superstar. many have not seen a good production, but I encourage many doubters to see the Ted Neeley tour. |
Man, I wish I could see that. I saw it with Ted Neeley and Carl Anderson (as I often boast) in 94, and it's one of the few things that I can truly, vividly remember from my childhood. I don't know that Godspell is sacrilegious, but I know I could never get into the music.
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Peritombry
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It kind of makes me laugh when people complain about the show not showing the ressurection. The entire thing is from Judas' point of veiw and he hung himself before it happened. Of course he didn't see it. 
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Salome
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I think the original poster meant to talk about Tim Rice not ALW.. Rice wrote the show..ALW did the score.
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Robinflamingo
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| Jekkienumber24601 wrote: | | yes. there's nothing wrong at all with Superstar. if anything Godspell is the sacraligious one, but Christians are more willing to accept that, just because of the history and title of Jesus Christ Superstar. many have not seen a good production, but I encourage many doubters to see the Ted Neeley tour. |
I love the music to JCSuperstar. I have the original concept album because I'm old. I've known and loved the music since before most of you were born. It did NOT start out as a stage play, OR a movie, but a concept album. However, I have seen the movie and several versions of the stage show.
I love Godspell. I have the original album because I'm old. I've seen several productions of it, been in a couple and directed one.
| Peritombry wrote: | | It kind of makes me laugh when people complain about the show not showing the ressurection. The entire thing is from Judas' point of veiw and he hung himself before it happened. Of course he didn't see it. |
Let me ask then how anything at all was seen after his death. If anything was seen, the resurrection could be seen. With your theory, the show should end abruptly at Judas' death.
I'm a Christian. Specifically, a Lutheran, so you won't think this is from a pentecostal point of view. The issue most "religious" people have with JCS is the lack of a resurrection. That's it. On the *original concept album* there is no resurrection and no indication of one.
As for people having more problems with Godspell, I'm at a loss for this one. All the songs are directly from hymnals, most notably the Episcopalian hymnal, and most of Jesus' lines are direct quotes from Matthew and a few bits from the OT prophesies. Act One is his ministry, and Act Two is the passion, with implied resurrection at the end.
Both came about during the Jesus Freak movement, and "traditional" Christians had problems with everything in those days.
This is the historical perspective from the inception of both works.
Thank you.
*gets her walker and thumps out of the thread*
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Brother Marvin Hinten, S.
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She's right. Also, both of them are very much Bible-based shows. In fact, for all the hemming and hawing about JCS being blasphemous, except for a few character pieces embellishing the characters of Judas and Mary Magdalene, and minor changes for purposes of plot (for example, Pilate having the dream instead of his wife, and much earlier in the show), it's closer to the Bible than people gave it credit for.
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Peritombry
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I'm also religious but I still like the show. The final song isn't exactly realistic. It's more like a conclusion IMO. If that makes sense.
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Jekkienumber24601
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| krisavalon wrote: | | Jekkienumber24601 wrote: | | yes. there's nothing wrong at all with Superstar. if anything Godspell is the sacraligious one, but Christians are more willing to accept that, just because of the history and title of Jesus Christ Superstar. many have not seen a good production, but I encourage many doubters to see the Ted Neeley tour. |
Man, I wish I could see that. I saw it with Ted Neeley and Carl Anderson (as I often boast) in 94, and it's one of the few things that I can truly, vividly remember from my childhood. I don't know that Godspell is sacrilegious, but I know I could never get into the music. |
Godspell takes the subject matter too lightly and often goes for slapstick and vaudvillie like fun rather than teach and let the message get across.
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Robinflamingo
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| Jekkienumber24601 wrote: | | krisavalon wrote: | | Jekkienumber24601 wrote: | | yes. there's nothing wrong at all with Superstar. if anything Godspell is the sacraligious one, but Christians are more willing to accept that, just because of the history and title of Jesus Christ Superstar. many have not seen a good production, but I encourage many doubters to see the Ted Neeley tour. |
Man, I wish I could see that. I saw it with Ted Neeley and Carl Anderson (as I often boast) in 94, and it's one of the few things that I can truly, vividly remember from my childhood. I don't know that Godspell is sacrilegious, but I know I could never get into the music. |
Godspell takes the subject matter too lightly and often goes for slapstick and vaudvillie like fun rather than teach and let the message get across. |
And Herod's song is serious? I agree that Act One is lighthearted, but the slapstick and the vaudeville disappears for the most part in Act Two, which is the Passion.
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Nettik
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| Robinflamingo wrote: | | Jekkienumber24601 wrote: | | krisavalon wrote: | | Jekkienumber24601 wrote: | | yes. there's nothing wrong at all with Superstar. if anything Godspell is the sacraligious one, but Christians are more willing to accept that, just because of the history and title of Jesus Christ Superstar. many have not seen a good production, but I encourage many doubters to see the Ted Neeley tour. |
Man, I wish I could see that. I saw it with Ted Neeley and Carl Anderson (as I often boast) in 94, and it's one of the few things that I can truly, vividly remember from my childhood. I don't know that Godspell is sacrilegious, but I know I could never get into the music. |
Godspell takes the subject matter too lightly and often goes for slapstick and vaudvillie like fun rather than teach and let the message get across. |
And Herod's song is serious? I agree that Act One is lighthearted, but the slapstick and the vaudeville disappears for the most part in Act Two, which is the Passion. |
I personally can't sit through the first act of Godspell, it's too much "fun" for me and not enough just getting the message across. The second act's definitely more bearable. And other than "Herod's Song" in the second act, JCS definitely focuses on getting the message across, but "Herod's Song" makes for comic relief in the second act as things begin to get heated.
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Robinflamingo
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I really wish you had seen our production of Godspell. The young man who played Jesus was so amazing - and truthfully, he has the bulk of the lines in Act One and they are nearly word for word from Matthew, so I imagine the production you've seen (or if you are basing it on the movie >ACK<) was probably pretty heavy on the added improvisations that many productions of Godspell get totally ruined by.
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Jekkienumber24601
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| Nettik wrote: | | Robinflamingo wrote: | | Jekkienumber24601 wrote: | | krisavalon wrote: | | Jekkienumber24601 wrote: | | yes. there's nothing wrong at all with Superstar. if anything Godspell is the sacraligious one, but Christians are more willing to accept that, just because of the history and title of Jesus Christ Superstar. many have not seen a good production, but I encourage many doubters to see the Ted Neeley tour. |
Man, I wish I could see that. I saw it with Ted Neeley and Carl Anderson (as I often boast) in 94, and it's one of the few things that I can truly, vividly remember from my childhood. I don't know that Godspell is sacrilegious, but I know I could never get into the music. |
Godspell takes the subject matter too lightly and often goes for slapstick and vaudvillie like fun rather than teach and let the message get across. |
And Herod's song is serious? I agree that Act One is lighthearted, but the slapstick and the vaudeville disappears for the most part in Act Two, which is the Passion. |
I personally can't sit through the first act of Godspell, it's too much "fun" for me and not enough just getting the message across. The second act's definitely more bearable. And other than "Herod's Song" in the second act, JCS definitely focuses on getting the message across, but "Herod's Song" makes for comic relief in the second act as things begin to get heated. |
At least Jesus was sent to Herod, he demanded miracles and mocked Jesus and sent him back. Godspell skims over all of this.
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Jekkienumber24601
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| Robinflamingo wrote: | | I really wish you had seen our production of Godspell. The young man who played Jesus was so amazing - and truthfully, he has the bulk of the lines in Act One and they are nearly word for word from Matthew, so I imagine the production you've seen (or if you are basing it on the movie >ACK<) was probably pretty heavy on the added improvisations that many productions of Godspell get totally ruined by. |
I know it's based off of Mathew. I just think the music doesn't deserve the script in that show. Jesus' lines are ok. It's how he makes everything a game makes it take longer to get to the next song and often isn't really funny as intended but childeshly annoying.
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Vichysois
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I feel like now the conversation has devolved into debating how strongly evangelical the shows are supposed to be. Neither show, in my opinion, has the agenda of proselytizing, nor are they "religious" at their core.
JCS is a fictionalized and stylized account of the politics surrounding the ministry and execution of the historical figure of Jesus of Nazareth, believed by many to be the son of God.
Godspell (in its incarnation as we know it today....I'm not talking about Tebelak's senior thesis/"passion play") is about the formation of a community, and it just so happens the particular community is that of a troupe donning the personae of the Christian "Jesus" and his followers.
Obviously, both would utilize the Bible because it contains the "primary sources" for the material, if you will. But neither show purports to be Biblical. Thus, neither show really should be evaluated as to how well it conveys a Gospell message, since that is only incidental to the storytelling.
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Robinflamingo
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While I do agree with some of what you've said (which is why I stopped responding, frankly) my answers were originally intended to answer the questions raised by the original poster.
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Vichysois
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^ Oh certainly. I wasn't attacking you, as you were indeed answering the question. It just appeared to me that other posts had taken the original question as a springboard to debate the show's wrongly attributed evangelical content.
On that note, a particular production is of course free to add that sort of preacher's agenda in because the content can lend itself to that. My point is that it's not essential to the show by any means.
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AzelmaCombeferre9430
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Okay, so I've never actually read the Bible, just Acts for CCD, so my thoughts may not be too valid.
Mary Magdelene is implied to be a prostitute, thats 'tradational' but it comes from Romans who were sexist and decided that a woman should not play a signifigant part in a religion so they made her a prostitute to make her look bad. Wow, thanks Romans for starting the "I'm Religious so I must be anti-women" stereotype. 
Judas is a bit more 'humanized' in JCS. thats not nessicarly in canon. Jesus is more human than Divine. Jesus also never perfroms any mircales or makes His Assumption into Heaven like in the Bible.
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Heavylove
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Ive read in one book that ALW wasnt wrong on any off the major things in the bible but I havent seen JCS yet nor read the bible that properly.
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