Megan the Phantom Girlie
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Diagnosing the PhantomI know that this will probably annoy people who are familiar with the musical only, but I think his deformity is an aggravation of congenital porphyria and that his personality is a combination of Asperger's Syndrome and possibly bipolar disorder.
I hope I didn't offend too many people here. I myself am bipolar, so that's part of my investigation.
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Megan the Phantom Girlie
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Let me clarify: SOME symptoms of AS.
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Miss Daae
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I know someone with Asperger's. The obsessiveness is a big factor.
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RainyCrystal
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Actually, I've always been thinking more along the line of leprosy, just from the descriptions of his appearance, his face, his skin, etc. from the novel...
But then again, supposedly he was born with his deformity. So... hard to say.
And I don't think Erik is bipolar. I think it's just more like he's fed up w/ what he's had to deal w/ all his life, and devloped this cynicism and hatred toward the world and the people in it.
~Sissi
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Quique
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Ghost...People, he's a ghost.
You know, Boo?
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happyguava
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No he's not! He just gets nicknamed "opera ghost" because he is ghost-like.
And boo to you too!
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GlamorousGriz
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Boo ya!
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LoneWanderer
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Booyakasha!
(I'm pretty sure noone can build off of that one...does that mean I win?)
~The Lone Wanderer
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jcstar
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| RainyCrystal wrote: | And I don't think Erik is bipolar. I think it's just more like he's fed up w/ what he's had to deal w/ all his life, and devloped this cynicism and hatred toward the world and the people in it.
~Sissi |
I agree. I mean, put yourself in his position. How would you feel? People have laughed at you, your mother probably gave you up for dead, and your forced to live underground, because people are afraid of your appearance.
On top of that, the stupid managers are ignoring your cries to have Box 5 kept open (a reasonable request), and your trying to give Miss Daae the break that she needs.... plus you love her... plus you're in love with her.
The thing is, she lies to you and then betrays you... twice! (once on the rooftop, and then giving back the ring at the end)
(For the record, I don't think Christine ever loved the Phantom, but used him)
I can empathise with everything the Phantom has to deal with.
Andy.
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NoOneMournsTheWicked
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| jcstar wrote: |
(For the record, I don't think Christine ever loved the Phantom, but used him)
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I don't think she loved him, but I don't think she used him either. I think she was a little too naive to realise what she was doing. She probably figured 'Oh, how wonderful, it's that angel of music my father promised me, why don't I sing for him.' Then she just kind of took the opportunities that were presented to her, not really realising that the Phantom was doing this on purpose until it was too late. Then she was just like, to quote the Cleolinda parody, "Oh, shit."
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RainyCrystal
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| jcstar wrote: | | (For the record, I don't think Christine ever loved the Phantom, but used him) |
What would she have "used" him for? She was but a young, innocent, naive opera singer who believed that he was the "Angel of Music". She looked upon him as a teacher, a mentor, a guide, and a father figure who taught her and helped her succeed. She "loved" him the way a student would "love" a good teacher, and she admired him, respected him, and at the same time, feared him and wanted to be free from his grasp. It was Raoul whom she loved romantically. She was but a silly girl not knowing what to do, and I don't think she ever even had a single darn clue as to how to "use" men.
Have you read the book?
~Sissi
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jcstar
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Oh come on. She knew what she was doing.
She played the Phantom for a fool.
Andy.
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RainyCrystal
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| jcstar wrote: | | She played the Phantom for a fool. |
Once again, have you read the book?
And Christine knew CLEARLY that Erik was NO fool. NOBODY could fool him. She knew too well how smart he was, and she was trying her hardest just so she could avoid being watched by him. She tried to hide from him, tried so that he wouldn't find out everything. But "play" him? No matter how dumb the girl was, she wouldn't dare to "play" Erik.
~Sissi
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Lady Jemima
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| Quote: | | And Christine knew CLEARLY that Erik was NO fool. NOBODY could fool him. She knew too well how smart he was, and she was trying her hardest just so she could avoid being watched by him. She tried to hide from him, tried so that he wouldn't find out everything. But "play" him? No matter how dumb the girl was, she wouldn't dare to "play" Erik. |
I agree heartily with that! And I don't think Christine could have "used" the Phantom even if she had wanted to. She had passionate feelings for him, but the book makes it quite clear she was terrified of him as well, and wouldn't have dared try to decieve him in any way.
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jcstar
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But... she gives back the ring at the end (of the show) and runs off. Leaving him heartbroken.
The way I see it, he says "Christine, I love you." She hands back the ring as if to say "f--- you!"
(I forget what happens in the book, as I haven't read it in years)
And Christtine DID decieve the Phantom....
"I gave you my music,
Made your song take wing.
And now, how you've repaid me!
Denied me and betrayed me!!
He was bound to love you
When he heard you sing."
(Phantom drops Chandelier.)
"Your chanins are still mine!
You will sing for me!"
(Phantom rips the chain from he neck.)
"Oh God, if I agree,
What horrors wait for me?
In this, the Phantom's opera?"
(She ends up being in Don Juan, to try to decieve the Phantom.)
I have always believed the Phantom is the hero of the story. I see the other characters as villains.
The Phantom does have moments of insanity, but he's doing thingfs for the good of the opera. People are just too ignorant, arrogant and afraid to listen to him.
I still think Christine knew what she was doing.
Even Leroux himself said "Surely, we must pity the Opera Ghost."
Andy.
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RainyCrystal
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| jcstar wrote: | | But... she gives back the ring at the end (of the show) and runs off. Leaving him heartbroken. |
She gave him back the ring, because she thought that was the right thing to do. Maybe she shouldn't have done it, but she felt she should. And she left because he asked her to. He wanted her to leave with Raoul and leave him. And didn't she have the right to go w/ the man whom she truly loved, and who truly loved her?
| Quote: | | And Christtine DID decieve the Phantom.... |
When someone is angry, upset, or jealous, you think you really can take what he says as the solid truth? "Insolent boy, this slave of fashion..." well, think about it, is that the truth? Words from an angry and upset person can always be overly dramatic and over-the-top, that's true in life. And Christine might have appeared to have deceived the Phantom, but she certainly never wanted to, and never thought she did. If she did, it was unintentionally. She never said out loud "I'm going to deceive the Phantom..." She was but a young, naive, innocent girl, who I doubt even knew how to deceive anyone. She had no idea what she was doing, thus kept doing things wrong. She wanted to do what she thought was the best, yet they turn out not right. Remember, she might not have loved the Phantom romantically, but she cared for him. He was her Angel of music, her "guide and guardian". She admired and respected him. Why would she want to purposely deceive her teacher who, after all, had inspired her and taught her?
| Quote: | | (She ends up being in Don Juan, to try to decieve the Phantom.) |
First of all, the Phantom was clearly demanding that his opera was to be performed, and he demanded her to be cast. If his orders were not followed, like in Il Muto, god knows what would happen? Everybody knew that if they didn't do what he wanted, probably something like the Il Muto incident, if not worse, would happen. If Christine didn't perform the part, like she didn't perform Countess Il Muto at the beginning, god knows what the Phantom would do.
Christine ended up in Don Juan, because she felt she had no choice. It was her duty, and she had to do it, though she was dead afraid of what might happen. She wanted to be free of the Phantom, yet she went through this whole thing on how much she didn't want to do it. "I cannot sing it, duty or not!" "Raoul, I'm frightened - don't make me do this... Raoul, it scares me -don't put me through this ordeal by fire. He'll take me, I know... we'll be parted for ever, he won't let me go! What I once used to dream I now drea...if he finds me, it won't ever end... and he'll always be there, singing songs in my head..."
| Quote: | | I have always believed the Phantom is the hero of the story. I see the other characters as villains. |
How are they villains? What have they done wrong exactly?
| Quote: | | The Phantom does have moments of insanity, but he's doing thingfs for the good of the opera. People are just too ignorant, arrogant and afraid to listen to him. |
"Good for the opera" or good for himself? What good did he do for the opera when he murdered Buquet, murdered Piangi, nearly killed Carlotta, kidnapped Christine, and almost killed Raoul? He did those things because he felt like it and he could, and he knew that he could get away w/ it. And what good did he do for the opera when he demanded payment of thousands every month? What good did he do for the opera when everyday he made everyone live in fear, and later dropped the chandelier and killing several people on the way?
| Quote: | | Even Leroux himself said "Surely, we must pity the Opera Ghost." |
Who doesn't "pity" the Opera Ghost? He's gotten more pity than probably any fictional character in the history of literature!
~Sissi
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jcstar
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| RainyCrystal wrote: | | "Good for the opera" or good for himself? What good did he do for the opera when he murdered Buquet, murdered Piangi, nearly killed Carlotta, kidnapped Christine, and almost killed Raoul? He did those things because he felt like it and he could, and he knew that he could get away w/ it. And what good did he do for the opera when he demanded payment of thousands every month? What good did he do for the opera when everyday he made everyone live in fear, and later dropped the chandelier and killing several people on the way? |
1. Bouquet knew the Phantom existed, and told everyone (whether they belived him or not is imaterial). He died. Regrrettable, but so what?
Piangi was just a pawn in the Don Juan thing. He died, because he outlived his use to the Phantom.
Raoul was irritating. He gets in the way.
Carlotta was overbearing and refused to listen to the warnings (and as I read the book, I picture her as a non-singer... or a-tonal)
The managers were ignorant, and should have stayed in the office, and not gotten involved.
2. I always thought Christine went willingly with the Phantom. She never resisted. How is that kidnapping?
3. I have been in the same situatiomns as the Phantom. Trying to do something that will get me noticed. I do it the honest and true way, but people ignore my efforts. Instead of getting mad, I get even.
Would I kill anyone? Nah. But I have had moments where I want to force my will over everybody else.
Andy.
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MrsJemimaMistoffelees
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| jcstar wrote: | 1. Bouquet knew the Phantom existed, and told everyone (whether they belived him or not is imaterial). He died. Regrrettable, but so what?
Piangi was just a pawn in the Don Juan thing. He died, because he outlived his use to the Phantom.
Raoul was irritating. He gets in the way.
Carlotta was overbearing and refused to listen to the warnings (and as I read the book, I picture her as a non-singer... or a-tonal)
The managers were ignorant, and should have stayed in the office, and not gotten involved. |
So that makes murder justifiable? I think not. No one has the right to take someone else’s life, especially innocent lives.
| Quote: | | 2. I always thought Christine went willingly with the Phantom. She never resisted. How is that kidnapping? |
In the beginning, yes. But at the end, they fall through a trap door that the Phantom set up to steal away Christine. He grabs her and they fall through.
"He'll take me, I know...we'll be parted forever...he won't let me go." - Christine "Twisted Every Way"
Now why would Christine say that if she willingly wanted to go with the Phantom?
Veel Liefs,
Jemima 
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RainyCrystal
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| jcstar wrote: | 1. Bouquet knew the Phantom existed, and told everyone (whether they belived him or not is imaterial). He died. Regrrettable, but so what?
Piangi was just a pawn in the Don Juan thing. He died, because he outlived his use to the Phantom.
Raoul was irritating. He gets in the way.
Carlotta was overbearing and refused to listen to the warnings (and as I read the book, I picture her as a non-singer... or a-tonal)
The managers were ignorant, and should have stayed in the office, and not gotten involved. |
NONE of those reasons justify murder, kidnapping, and threatening. Those people have done NOTHING wrong, no matter what. Just because someone is annoying or ignorant or overbearing, does that mean he/she deserves to die? And just because YOU think someone is annoying or stupid, does that mean the person really IS annoying or stupid? And just because you don't like someone and wants him/her out of the way, does that give you the right to kill him/her?
| Quote: | | 2. I always thought Christine went willingly with the Phantom. She never resisted. How is that kidnapping? |
At the beginning, when Christine still believed that he was the "angel of music", of course she went with him. And like she could resist and go back after he pulled her through the mirror, and led her down the way. Not counting he's pretty much hypnotized her, and she was also probably too surprised/shocked to do a thing. And that was BEFORE she found out that he was a psycho, obsessive murderer who wanted to possess her and take her away from her lover.
~Sissi
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jcstar
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I still see no signs of Aspurgers in the Phantom.
OCD? Yeah. But that alone does not make him an evil person. We all have our obsessions in life.
I would say he also could have a short attention span. Not ADD/ADHD, but just too many ideas running around his head at one time.
Am I trying to justify what the Phantom did was right? No, of course not. I'm simply saying that (being on his side), I can see why he wanted to do those things.
They got in his way.
If ypou had worked your whole life trying to promote yourself or prove yourself to people and no-one took notice of you, you'd be pissed as well.
You probably wouldn't kill anybody, but (if driven to the point of breaking) you would probably do whtever it takes to get those people out of your way so that you can live your life.
Andy.
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RainyCrystal
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| jcstar wrote: | If ypou had worked your whole life trying to promote yourself or prove yourself to people and no-one took notice of you, you'd be pissed as well.
You probably wouldn't kill anybody, but (if driven to the point of breaking) you would probably do whtever it takes to get those people out of your way so that you can live your life.
Andy. |
I know more than enough people who've worked their butts off all their life, yet end up getting nothing at the end. But none of them did whatever it takes to get those people out of the way so that they can live their lives.
I have a friend who's an opera singer, and she is in the situation right now. God knows how much she's worked all her life, and god knows how much time, money, and efforts she's put into her training. But now, how many people get in her way? How much she is risking a life of being a starving artist, having worked hard for years, yet end up with nothing? Is she happy about that? No. But is she "pissed"? No. She accepts it as the way life is, the way this world works, and keeps telling herself that that's the way business is, that's whay you run into in life, and you can't just get whatever you want to get all the time.
~Sissi
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MrsJemimaMistoffelees
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| jcstar wrote: | If ypou had worked your whole life trying to promote yourself or prove yourself to people and no-one took notice of you, you'd be pissed as well.
You probably wouldn't kill anybody, but (if driven to the point of breaking) you would probably do whtever it takes to get those people out of your way so that you can live your life.
Andy. |
How can people take notice of him when he tries his hardest to hide himself? You can't praise what is not known.
What was everyone doing to the Phantom so that he couldn't live his life? Not running the theatre the way he wanted it? He didn’t do anything to have that power! He had no say whatsoever in how the theatre was to be handled. All he did was terrorize people into doing things his way.
For the record, I wouldn't sabatoage anyone just to get ahead. I would have no pride in myself I were to do something so horrible.
Veel Liefs,
Jemima
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jcstar
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| MrsJemimaMistoffelees wrote: | | For the record, I wouldn't sabatoage anyone just to get ahead. I would have no pride in myself I were to do something so horrible. |
It's not how you play the game, it's whether you win or lose.
Andy.
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RainyCrystal
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| jcstar wrote: | It's not how you play the game, it's whether you win or lose.
Andy. |
There are a lot of ways to win. You think all the people who are successful today had done something that they probably should not have done? You think all the successful musicians today had done something to get people out of the way just so he/she can get to the top? And all those famous composers of the 1700s, 1800s, and 1900s, how did they "win"?
And how many people lose? And what do they do about it?
~Sissi
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jcstar
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| RainyCrystal wrote: | | There are a lot of ways to win. You think all the people who are successful today had done something that they probably should not have done? You think all the successful musicians today had done something to get people out of the way just so he/she can get to the top? And all those famous composers of the 1700s, 1800s, and 1900s, how did they "win"? |
I've read that my favourite classical composer, Tchaikovsky, bribed people to perform his work. People now hail his work as genius.
Madonna used/uses sex to get what she wants. As did Eva Peron. My two favourite women in the world. They stepped on/used people, and never thought twice about it. They are world icons.
Stanley Kubrik wasn't an angel. He pushed people to their limits and further. He got amazing results.
Gene Simmons. Winner. Enough said.
I have a whole list, but I won't go on.
Andy.
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RainyCrystal
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| jcstar wrote: | Madonna used/uses sex to get what she wants. As did Eva Peron. My two favourite women in the world. They stepped on/used people, and never thought twice about it. They are world icons.
Stanley Kubrik wasn't an angel. He pushed people to their limits and further. He got amazing results.
Gene Simmons. Winner. Enough said. |
Reason why I do not admire those people one tiny bit. And I despise Madonna.
But oddly enough, I admire Erik (the Phantom) in many ways. Maybe it's because after all, he's a fictional character.
And I don't know where you read that about Tchaikovsky. In the biographies about him that I've read in the past, I've never come across anything that says he "bribed" people to perform his work.
~Sissi
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Phantomrose
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Aspergers? I really dont think so-they tend to have problems connecting with people enough to form a relationship.
Bipolar? quite possible. After all, there are theories that both Edgar Allan Poe and Picasso were bipolar and look at the masterpieces they created, in both their manic and depressive states.
As for the physical, he could have a form of neurofibromatosis, although that usually doesnt appear at birth, but rather as the child grows....so Im not sure.
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Megan the Phantom Girlie
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Um, I'm... uh... trying to sabotage my drama teacher's whim to perform The Wiz in favor of a translation of Tanz der Vampire I'm working on, so I guess I can relate to Erik on that note. Seriously- I spend half my time nowadays finding pictures for costume inspiration and writing casting suggestions, then anonymously planting them in his box in the staff room. I suppose, though, I shouldn't really pass judgment on myself like that until I've built a little doll theater to stage it in vicariously...
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Rumpleteazer4760
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An idea I just had: part of the Phantom's personality could be caused by Body Dysmorphic Disorder.
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Megan the Phantom Girlie
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Hmm, I don't know about that. BDD usually centers around a tiny or even imaginary flaw. While it's not as big a deal to us, the phans and observers, the Phantom's face is still a rather large and very real flaw.
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Rumpleteazer4760
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Yeah, that's true.
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