Archive for Musicals.Net Musicals.Net |
| Chicagorag |
Cats OBCok this may be out of line...I just bought the OBC of Cats. And I can't stand it. Why are Americans incapable of doing any accents accept there own? Cats is clearly english, and needs a brittish accent. Yet this recording is filled to the brim with American accents... why!?!? |
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| Smudge |
There is absolutely no reason for Cats to be done in a British accent... It could take place anywhere in the world, so why would an American cast perform the show in British accents? | ||||||||
| Carbucketty |
Re: Cats OBC
The Aussie cast is the best English version that you can get on CD. (Except for the guy playing Mungojerry.) I might suggest the Hungarian, Viennese, or perhaps Japanese Long Run casts for good vocals. I would say that Cats is "ambigiously" English and that the show can be done in any accent. I don't like the OBC for other reasons. It's a product of it's time. The cast has a very nasal New York accents to my ears and I don't like the arrangement choices for the CD. The show was glammed-up for the Broadway premier so it's got a few over-the-top spots. -- |
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| Luc |
Re: Cats OBC
FINALLY someone agrees!! I really don't like it. |
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| Chicagorag |
why brittish? because it constantly quotes English places- (unless these cats jumped on a plane...)
"He doesn't haunt pubs - he has eight or nine clubs For he's the St. James's Street Cat! " "It must and it shall be spring in Pall Mall While Bustopher Jones wears white" "We have an extensive reputation We make our home in Victoria Grove" "We are very well known in Cornwall Gardens In Launceston Place and in Kensington Square" "Up, up, up, past the Russell Hotel Up, up, up, up, to the Heaviside Layer" |
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| Ghost |
Yes, the lyrics of Cats are very much british.
I find the Broadway cast somewhat loud and annoying as well, with the exception of Ken Page. |
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| Flitterbug |
It very much annoys me when I hear people saying (or, in this case singing) words in an accent different to how they're supposed to be pronounced. For example, people who say "ax" or "arks" instead of ask...
To me, a person who grew up speaking English mispronouncing things is one of the biggest annoyances there is. That's pretty much the only reason I dont like the OBC - some of the words just sound wrong. Then again, I suppose people's idea of the "proper" way to pronounce things is always going to be different. (Y'know, that whole tomayto, tomahto thing. I just go with what doesn't sound like you're speaking through your nose or hacking up something unpleasant. Which would be the ah, by the way...) |
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| Pawzxx |
These cats jumped on a train actually, in Skimbleshanks, and went north of the border. To Gallowgate and Dumfries as the songs says 
I take the reason those places are mentioned in the songs is because TS Elliot lived in England (correct me if i'm wrong), and maybe he took some inspiration from the certain places he wrote about? I dunno, just a guess. I dunno, might just be me but I think the OBC jellicle songs lacks alot of the energy OLC jellicle songs has... |
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| Dvarg |
That's just crazy!!! |
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| Smudge |
There are other reasons that I don't particularly care for the OBC recording, but it's not because they don't use british accents. The vocals are indeed nasally and mostly icky (from what I recall. I haven't listened to it in ages), and yes, TS Elliot was British, and that's why there are references to British schtuff, but I still don't think it has to be done in any particular accent... | ||||||||
| Carbucketty |
Well, he was born in Missouri, but he dropped his American citizenship and became a British subject. |
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| Rumblepurr |
Hold It...References to TS Eliot...Eliot was born on 26 September 1888 in St. Louis. He attended Harvard in 1906-09, and earned his Bachelor’s degree in English in three years instead of the usual four. During this time, Eliot began writing poetry. T. S. Eliot immigrated to England in 1915, which created a chain of events. His earlier poetry began to be published between June and November of 1915, “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock” (Poetry, Chicago), “Rhapsody on a Windy Night” (Blast), “Portrait of a Lady” (Alfred Kreymborg’s Others) and five poems were published in the Catholic Anthology. And, he married Vivien Haigh-Wood on 26 June 1915. And finally, Eliot became a British citizen. He later became Director of Publishing for Faber and Faber, Ltd. in the 1920s. In 1948, he received the Nobel Peace Prize for Literature, and the Order of Merit for a collected work known as the Four Quartets, which was is comprised of: “Burnt Norton” (1941), “East Coker” (1940), “The Dry Salvages” (1941) and “Little Gidding” (1942). Because of the awards, the Four Quartets was considered his masterpiece. T. S. Eliot also had some distinction at being a playwright. He wrote seven plays, with his more successful ones being: Murder in the Cathedral (1935) and The Cocktail Party (1949). These references came from TSE's autobiography. Some of his poetry was influenced by various trips he took around England and Paris, France (1910). Grizabella's 8-line unpublished poem came from Villon’s “La Belle Heaulmiere”. TSE's biographer, Peter Ackroyd, stated: "Many of the verses on the subject of Growltiger and Macavity had in fact originally been written for the children of the Fabers and the Morleys; Eliot’s own affection for small rather that large animals is sufficiently well known, and he was the owner (or patron) of a succession of cats with names like Pettipaws, Wiscus and George Pushdragon. [ ... ] The verses of Practical Cats revert to the ‘thumping’ rhythms which he had assimilated as a child, and perhaps they owe something of their inspiration, also, to the memory of Eliot’s father who drew cats for recreation." As for the problems with accents... We all know that CATS took the lyrics from TSE's poetry. Even some of the lyrics created by Trevor Nunn and Richard Stilgoe were developed or used influences from TSE's poetry. We also know that the original CATS musical was created in England before it hopped the Pond to Broadway. So... the musical will contain references to the UK, and UK accents. When the musical did come to Broadway, minor changes did occur. For example, the "Ballad of Billy McCaw" was dropped in favor of the Aria. ALW and Stephen Hanan did not mention why. (Note: "Billy McCaw" is one of TSE's poems...) However, I am mildly surprised that ALW and Trevor Nunn did not restructure some of the songs to reflect possibly a New York setting instead of keeping the UK references: "Fifth Avenue" for "St. James" or something similar. Of course, changing the musical to reflect its locale might have proved to be a dangerous precedence. With all the different tours, and staging of CATS all over the world, Nunn and ALW would have a full time job just translating and changing scripts and scores... There might be another reason for the presence of accents in the musical. In the Australian recording, for example, the only performer I can hear clearly that has an "Aussie" accent is Grant Smith as Gus the Theater Cat. Perhaps, his accent is emphasized to give the local population some "identity". Just a thought... Respectfully submitted Rumblepurr 
The Writer Cat. |
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| Dvarg |
Re: Hold It...
Why? I have never heard of any musical that changes it's original location to suit whichever city it's playing in..? |
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| Smudge |
Neither have I. Most plays and/or musicals that come to the US from other countries (or vice versa) remain in their original settings, do they not? I'm pretty out of the Broadway loop right now as I've been on tour for a few months and wasn't able to afford to see anything before that, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... | ||||||||
| Luc |
But, it doesn't matter where CATS is set. It's a junkyard, and that's all we know. If they want to say it takes place in Britain, it takes place in Britain. If they want to say it takes place in Calamazoo, it takes place in Calamazoo. It makes do difference! | ||||||||
| Dvarg |
Good point. |
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| Pounce |
CATS is not strongly set in Britain. I didn't see it but a recent regional production in Pittsburgh built their set using Pittsburgh scenes and the junkyard had items known locally. I think CATS can get away with being set in any country. It's really more about cats than anything else and has only loose references to Britain. | ||||||||
| Pounce |
As for the OBC, I think its musical arrangement is very good. The only better version I've heard was the video and that was using a full orchestra. The singing in the Australian is very good but the music disappoints me. | ||||||||
| Carbucketty |
Re: Hold It...
Yes you have. It's called Cats. Siam-Ella, vår stjernekatt Sjå katta der som nøler stilt imot deg og ei lysande dør som grin imot ho lik ein flir. Du ser at kåpa er kje ny, så grå av støv og sand, og du ser at augnekroken svir . . . vridd lik ei kroket nål. På gata dreiv ho på fleire plan . . . frå ein avfallsplass til grannens altán. Ho trekte omkring i øydemark mellom grått hospits og kommunens park. Ein konstabel sa med konstabelsk ro: "Trur mest det var best ho drukna seg no." Kven trur vel ho som gjekk ute i natt er Siam-Ella vår stjernekatt? Lokosjekk, ein jernvegsskatt http://ffm.junetz.de/members/vlado/cats/ntext16.htm |
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| Moongewl |
Why would the actors need to give their feline characters British accents?
Last time I checked, housecats don't change their caterwauling based on their location. |
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| Luc |
Did I miss something?? Or is whatever Carbucketty just typed normal around here? | ||||||||
| Sweeney Hyde |
i don't like Cats at all, but if I have to listen to it, i will admit that some of the music isn't bad, I listen to the OBC. Betty Buckly=amazing. | ||||||||
| Carbucketty |
When I'm around, it is.. 
It's the Norwegian Lyrics to Grizabella, The Glamor cat. They changed the location names from the original. |
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| Carbucketty |
*twitch* Betty isn't so great.. Have you heard Elaine Paige? Debbie Byrne? Yukimi Shimura? Anita Meijer? I should post mp3. |
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| darkmage |
My fave Griz is Andrea Boegel from the original Hamburg cast.
The primary problem I have with the OBC album is not the voices, or the arrangements (although I admit they're a bit dated, but so is the OLC in that regard)--it's the mastering. They should have gone back and either remastered it to bring it up to current standards or rerecorded it with either one of the Broadway or touring casts. |
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| Dvarg |
Re: Hold It...
What in that lyric changes the location of Cats? I could hava expressed myself differently. I have never seen any other musical change it's location and I don't see why there's a reason why they should. When Les Miserables is sung in Norwegian (or English!) it doesn't mean the actuion takes place somewhere else than France. |
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| Smudge |
But that's really the exception rather than the rule. Most times the lyrics to a show aren't altered based on location. Sometimes I suppose, which I was not aware of, but not often. |
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| Pawzxx |
I don't think it needs to be sung in any particular accent to sound better, I mean I'd rate most of the foriegn language cast recordings bfore OLC, OBC and the original Aussie cast.
I absolutely love the french and japanese recordings.... And Dvarg, just out of interest, why was my suggestion crazy? I was trying to find a reason in response to chicagorag's question of why all the uk references in the songs. Wouldn't it be more likely he'd write about places and things close to home eh? In no way am I trying to say it shouldn't be set in other places, not at all, I was just speculating. |
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| Dvarg |
I was just bitchy and sarcastic because I thought you said something that is strikingly obvious. |
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| Carbucketty |
Re: Hold It...
Well... Cats is not Les Mis, Martin Guerre, Ikoku no Oka, or Kristina från Duvemala for that reason. Other than very incidental references in lyrics and the brand names in the Junkyard on the set, there really isn't too much plot that ties it to the UK. Translators and directors of non-English productions of the have often changed or generified locations. The Hungarian production of the show take place under a famous bridge in Budapest. Old Csendbelenn uses a discarded chandelier rather than a tire to send Griz to the great beyond. The Oslo production in 1985 was in an attic or loft as was the 1987 Swedish version. The Finnish production was on a construction site. Grizabelle strutted her stuff dans "la plaine Saint D'nis à la Chapelle" and Edgar took his train to Chantilly and Bruxelles in the French version. And they celebrated in Zwijndrecht, Cadzand, and Hoed van Holland when the "Nijdas van de Rijn" was pushed into the drink. And some productions like the Japanese production are set in London. In Japan, they reproduced the London set right down to the turning platform that was unique to the New London Theatre and the concession area was made to look like a old London street. |
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| Dvarg |
Re: Hold It...
But why? I think there's a difference between locating it in an attic (which also can be found in England) and specifically locating it in another country (which means changing the text more than just translating it. Particularly since it doesn't matter anyway where the story takes place, it seems awkward to change the location that way. |
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| Moongewl |
They change details like that for movie adaptations all the time, to better appeal to the target audience. Cats is supposed to be sort of universal--everywhere you go, cats are cats, so whether Skimbleshanks is boarding a train to Podunk, Kentucky, or to Paris, France, that doesn't change who Skimbleshanks is as a character. Now, if you were trying to set Les Miserables in New Jersey, you'd have a huge problem. But Cats can make the switch from one place to another without having to change other details of the show--the characters, the idea, the dialect, the accent, or anything else you can think of. Maybe, in another language, "Tottenham Court" or "Scotland Yard" wouldn't be familiar to the audience, and some local place would fit in the line better anyway. | ||||||||
| Dvarg |
So the idea is that people like the show better if it is set in their home town or someting? |
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| Rumblepurr |
Return
Not necessarily "home town" unless you really want to go to the regional level. When I advocated changes to the Broadway version, I was thinking more on a national level identity. Since Eliot made his references to UK landmarks, I thought the show might have been received better if the lyrics had New York (or vacinity) references. When the show went on tour, changes could have gone to true national level. If that was done, then CATS would have had a US identity as well... On the flip side, maybe theater audiences do not really care about locale changes when focusing on a musical. They might equate CATS with being UK related, and accept the UK references as part of the musical's identity. Just an idea... Respectfully submitted, Rumblepurr
The Writer Cat. |
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| ultra_lilac |
Although I can see that Cats would work equally well set in other countries, to me it's always seemed essentially British in that most of the characters are stereotypically London characters, with lots of references to the city. You have the aristocratic club haunter, the dodgy geezers, the rougish old riverboat man who is usually found hanging around the pub.
London place names and things TSE's would have been surrounded with in his day to day life, like steam trains with officious guards, or wrecked former glamor girls staggering round Tottenham court at night have all made their way into the poems. Although they are about cats, they are also a picture of British life at the time the poems were written. I know you get these types of people all over the world, but the source material has its roots deep in London and England, and I can see why purists might get snooty about that being 'stolen'. On the other hand I think that it can only be a good thing for the show to re-invent itself and innovate over time if it's to keep running. Edited to add- I saw the show for the first time this year in America, having only seen it in England and heard the OLC recording before, and hearing American voices WAS weird for me, but really it didn't really detract from my enjoyment of the show. You can't really expect people all around the world to put on English accents just so us Brits don't get our knickers in a twist!
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| Moongewl |
Not so much hometown as country--that's why I said think of movies. Americans(in the sense of US citizens) would generally rather see movies set in the United States. If the location is not of importance--I'm talking the opposite of something like Harry Potter, where the British feel is a large aspect--then a movie would do better in the US by being set in the US. Cats are cats, and Cats is about cats. Unlike virtually every other musical I can think of, their country is NOT of prime importance to the feel of the show. While the video has a London feel to it, the current US tour has a different feel, a much more American feel. The characters changed to reflect their audience--why not change the places mentioned in the show? |
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| Dvarg |
Well, if that is reason enough to change the location, so, uhm, ok. To tell the truth, I don't really care where Cats is set, I just like to know the reason people do what they do. |
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| Pounce |
A good example of location changes is the tour of The 25th Annual Putnman County Spelling Bee. The show ignores the fact that they say the name Putnam County and put in a few references of the city and building they are performing in. They want to make you feel as if you are watching a Spelling Bee in your town and including 4 members from the audience helps. A show making local references is a cheap way to win over the audience to make a favorable impression. At least it works in America. | ||||||||
| Moongewl |
Well, is there "reason enough" to keep the location the same? |
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| Dvarg |
Not anything else than that it's annoying when text is altered without no obvious reason. |
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| ultra_lilac |
For me Cats is still essentially a musical version of TSE's poems. He was a literary genius and I see no reason to second-guess him and change his words. The poems weren't JUST about cats, or he wouldn't have put references to the city they lived in as often as he did. He put in many references to London, and there must have been a reason for him to do that in what he was trying to potray. It's disrespectful of the source material just to change his words fo no other reason than 'people might not have heard of some of the places'. It's a kind of dumbing down too, and underestimating the audience. Like they will enjoy it if it references places in their own city, but will hate it if it mentions places in another country? I don't think there's any major reasons NOT to change it, but then the reasons FOR changing it aren't that great either. It's more a question of whether it should be changed than whether it can be changed. I don't want to sound snooty about it, but I don't think changing everything to make it 'easier' for audiences to digest is a good thing. It can strip the heart out of a show. People should be encouraged to learn new things and think about ways of life outside of their frame of reference, not have everything simplified and homogenized for them. Changing all the place names to American ones is the sort of thing that makes other countries think Americans are dumb. I know Americans are not dumb. I think most of them would be open-minded enough to enjoy something that came from another country for what it is. And if they can't is "Stuff can only be good if it comes from our own country" really a great attitude to be encouraging? *steps down off soap box* |
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| Pounce |
I don't think you have to be worried about Americans being xenophobic. America has embraced Les Miz with its French setting and roots. PotO in America is still set in France. America has also displayed a strong fondness for things British, latest being Harry Potter which has not been Americanized. | ||||||||
| ultra_lilac |
Yes Pounce, I agree. I think the people who try to target things to an American audience by changing things to an American setting are underestimating you guys!
Everyone I've met over here so far has been anything but Xenophobic. That's why I don't see the need to change the location Cats is set in. |
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| Moongewl |
I wasn't necessarily talking about just America, or just Cats, but trying to draw a parallel with movies. My argument was for changing the location anywhere in the world. I don't really have a problem keeping it the same, either.
I always thought it was Cats about dancing, singing cats, not the "literary genius" of Eliot. Besides, when the language is changed, you completely lose that anyway. I speak from experience, translating the Aeneid for Latin class: much of the Aeneid's greatness is its use of language, and language use doesn't translate. So what you take to France or Russia doesn't look like what Eliot wrote anyway, and quite frankly I've never heard of the places mentioned in "Grizabella" outside of a Cats setting. People in China or Norway are expected to know the stigma attached to Tottenham Court? And what if the three-syllable name of a place with a similar stigma in Beijing or Oslo would flow better in the translated line than squishing the four-syllable name in there? |
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| ultra_lilac |
I agree with you there. I f you're going to change the language you're going to lose Elliot's word's anyway.
I don't mean to sound pretentious when I say about Elliot's literary genius which I guess it came across as, but from what I've seen of interviews with ALW (specifically the bit where TSE turned Disney down) it seems to me that they went into this wanting to be true to the poems the work is based on. TSE's estate let ALW make Cats because they thought that his vision was respectful of the poems. The music captures the mood of the poems, and the dance makes the performers seem truly feline, but the poems themselves are important too. If it was just about a bunch of cats then the songs would all be about them licking their bums and eating spiders.
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| Moongewl |
True to the work, yes. I just don't think the Old Possum's Book poems qualify as literary genius. Eliot didn't want the poems and characters cutesied up and Disneyfied--I wouldn't either, if I were him--but they made changes to his work anyway to turn the poems into a musical. Yes, it was mostly changing one pronoun to another, but they chopped the poems up quite a bit as well, cutting out verses and making PC changes. I say ALW made Cats as an experiment to see if he could do it, not really as homage to Eliot's poems, but that's a personal opinion. |
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| ultra_lilac |
I more meant that he was a literary genius than that the poems themselves were. I know he wrote them as a fun thing to entertain some kids, but AS a genius, I'm sure he knew what he was doing when he chose to set them in the place he did.
Also I think the ways they chopped and changed the poems for the show (like with memory) was sympathetic to the original text and was done to complete some themes that were never really explored by Elliot because they were too dark for children's poems, or because they didn't scan well as songs. To me that's more acceptable than sticking in a bunch of new place names just because it will be less effort to understand. All the programs and press releases mention the TSE connection, so it seems to me that the people in charge of the rights to perform Cats still think that it's important to the show. I get your point too though. It's stupid to stick to the original poems if it stops people enjoying the show properly, but I don't think it does in this case. I just think there's more to loose than to gain by taking out the English references. Like you said though it's just my opinion and I'm sure most people (me included probably *laugh*) would still enjoy the show if they did update the lyrics. |
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| Moongewl |
Memory wasn't even written by Eliot though...Grizabella was, but not Memory. That piece was written with the influence of two Eliot poems.
But it's not that it's less effort to understand, it's that Tottenham Court is a place most people outside England have never heard of. I don't know what section of other cities are their red-light district, and I don't expect people from other countries to know which street in my city is the hangout of the less desirable figures. It's not something that gets discussed outside of the city itself, you know? And I figured they mentioned Eliot because Eliot's a big name in poetry. Kind of like when you put "Stephen King's blah blah blah" in the title of a movie to draw in a bigger crowd. Let me know if I sound rude. I just like debate, and sometimes I get a bit pushy/snarky without meaning to be. |
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| ultra_lilac |
I know memory came from other poems of TSE's with some alterations, but I think it was done in a sympathetic and necessary way, and not just to dumb down the show.
I tend to think that that if you hear a place referenced in a song that you don't understand you either look it up afterwards and learn something new (which is always good), or you don't really care, in which case it doesn't matter anyway. I think the seeing the type of character Griz is it's fairly easy to guess what kind of place Tottenham court road was. I first heard the songs when I was a little kid living in new Zealand. I didn't understand all the place names and what they meant straight away, but it intrigued me, and as I got older I found out more and more about the places and what meanings they gave the musical, and I enjoyed that. The more I learned and read and thought about it, the more 'reward' I'd get from the show. I know a lot of people just want to go along and be entertained by the awesome dancing kitties and don't give a toss about the poems or learning about London characters, but I don't see that anything in the show would stop them doing that. I don't think changing the setting to a familiar one would improve the experience enough to make it worth losing what is the foundations of the show. If they were to change it for international audiences then they should do it properly. Say put in a bunch of stereotypically new York characters and set it under Brooklyn bridge! Have a completely different version for every country, with different costumes and characters. I could see that working pretty well. It'd be a lot more interesting than just changing all the place names and leaving the rest of the text the same. I don't suppose RUG would ever go for that though. I think we're just going to have to agree to differ on this one. 
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| Chicagorag |
wahoo! this has created a talking point... although the original intent- the inability for Americans to do accents, has perhaps been fogotten...
Although sitting in the audience of Mary poppins, perhaps it is a good thing the Americans don't try and do accents... these were hidious... points were raised about Harry Potter being 'embraced' by America, um people- the title of the first book/move had to be changed in America (the only country in the world it was changed for) (changed from Philosophers to Sorcerers) and they had to film scenes twice where it was mentioned for teh Americans. Coming from an Australian stand point. Every export movie that comes from Australia to America has to be re-edited and dubbed so the Americans can understand the colloquial references, the Musical 'boy from oz' had a complete re-write to down play the 'australianism' of it and beef up the American characters. Not attempting to be a slur on America (been there and loved it!), just annoys me, that instead of expanding American minds by shwoing how culturallly different other countries can be, it seems the 'powers that be' insist on dumbing down everything. *steps off his soap box* |
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| Dvarg |
Very good point!
So you mean translating things is crap, and it doesn't matter hoe close a translator sticks to the original text, since it's "lost" anyway? You know what, I think that is very disrespectful towards very competent translators who do a great job in preserving the tone and spirit of literary texts.
Also a good point, besides, a translation of Cats isn't the same as a translation of Old Possum's Book Of Practical Cats. It's a translation of the dramaturgical and musical adaption of Old Possum's Book Of Practical Cats by ALW & co. |
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| Moongewl |
I speak as someone who translated books of the Aeneid for my Latin class, and I was talking language, not tone and spirit. There is simply no way to retain much of the linguistic intricacies in translation, because the languages are so different. The words have different connotations, the sentence structure changes, and devices from the original language are often impossible to translate to a different language. I don't think it devastates prose as much, but anything written in verse takes a real beating from translation. My point was that translating Cats into another language changes the language itself, so why not change the locations to suit the new language?
What movies have come from Australia and been changed? Just curious, not defensive. I haven't heard of any movies coming from Australia, but I may just not be paying attention. |
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| Swan |
I have to agree. When I translate something from Italian to English, I really see that each language keeps inside of itself the spirit and the way of thinking of its people. Sometimes it's just impossible to translate literally a concept or an idea. Translators = traitors...
Just in case someone wants to go deeper in this subject: http://www.amazon.com/Mouse-Rat-Umberto-Eco/dp/0753817985/ref=sr_1_1/102-6147444-7360922?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175205002&sr=1-1 Swan - Italian Jellicle |
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| Pounce |
To follow up Moongewl's point, it certainly is easier to translate prose accurately than translating poetry accurately and keeping it poetic. I've noticed compromises in meaning or even retaining the original foreign word so as to make the translated work poetic. | ||||||||
| Dvarg |
Following your logic, I suppose you also changed the location in your translation of the Aeneid to suit the new language? It makes as much sense.
Translating by nature involves dilemmas about necessary sacrifices in details of form and content without sacrificing too much of either. What you're suggesting implies that since a translator is forced to sacrifice something anyway, he or she can sacrifice anything. In my opinion, good translators don't make unneccessary changes to things like the location on his or her whim, because they ought to be as faithful to the text as possible. It is after all not the translator's personal whims I'm interrested, it's the intentions of the text he or she translated. |
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| Moongewl |
I was not trying to make the Aeneid more understandable for an audience. I was trying to make as literal a translation as possible for my teacher.
If we were talking about translating a book of poetry, I would agree that changing locations would not be necessary or helpful. But we're talking about a show which is partially pop culture(by which I mean not just high culture) and often watched by children. When you're reading a book, you can check the footnotes, or put it down and look up obscure references. When you're watching a musical, you don't have that luxury, and a reference to an unknown place would distract you. You might be able to infer from surrounding lines what the locations were like, but that takes you out of the sort of "transportation" feel of shows with your momentary confusion. The sign of a good show is that you get caught up in it, and confusion brings you back out. And what if you never do figure out exactly what Victoria Grove is like? You've missed part of the story, and you can't learn more about the place until you leave the show. |
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| Dvarg |
I understand your position, but prefer to have an as literate as possible translation of shows too. In my opinion the text as intended by the author(s) is more important than to avoid confusion among the audience. It has to do with respect for the written word no matter how high or low the esteem of the genre the text occurs within. |
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| Moongewl |
A literal translation, however, wouldn't rhyme. It wouldn't maintain the literary devices--for instance, a Latin chiasmus is impossible to translate to English, because of differences in the languages' structure--and it wouldn't stay in any sort of verse form. Those and other failings make a completely literal translation a lower priority for a musical in my eyes.
I've heard "Macavity" in German, and though I don't know any German, I enjoyed it. But I remember exactly how jarring it was to hear "Scotland Yard" in the song. It didn't fit; it sounded very weird, stuck in a song being sung in a foreign language. I've had the same experience with English poems and songs using foreign locations, where it just didn't gel to me. |
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| reedzee |
This kind of cuts into the debate, but oh well! (: Whenever I listen to the OBC recording of "Skimbleshanks", I can't help but think I'm listening to a bunch of kids singing along. Is it just me, or do all the females during that song sound like children? I love the song, but the ensemble just makes me cringe.
Rent is another example of a musical that will change the names of different locations. When I saw it on Broadway, it mentions the Circle Line When I saw it again in Toronto, they had changed it to the Statue of Liberty. They also changed Hicksville to Jersey as well. Some musicals will change locations to something a bit more familiar to the audience, depending on where they're performing. |
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| Dvarg |
Acompletely literal translation is obviously impossible. But I prefer translations to be as close to the originalk as possible. One brilliant example of the opposite of what you describe is Andre Bjerke's sensational translation of My Fair Lady to Norwegian. Because of hios incredible mastery of the language, he was not only capable of recreating the text incredibly faithful to the English text. He also made the excercises Eliza go through make sense in Norwegian almost unchanges. Several of the excersises she performs are by nature closely related to the English language, but Andre Bjerke made them relevant to language differences in Norway too. Thus he did not have to "change" the locations in the play. Granted, severalof them are relatively unknown in Norway. But Andre Bjerke was able to use the language in a way that everybody can understand what connotations they have in general. The point is that a translation that shall work on stage cannot be completely similar to the original, but a translator can do the trick of keeping amazingly close to the original text if he or she is clever enough. |
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| Moongewl |
I guess I make a distinction between language and meaning that you(and most people) don't. To me, the words themselves are nearly as important as their meaning. I'd rather have a song sound right, and flow properly, and not have unpleasant juxtapositions, instead of keeping a location that's not notable outside its original home and unfamiliar to the audience, and sounds out-of-place in the song. | ||||||||
| *asterix* |
That's not so much changing the location as having to spell out more plainly to non-New Yorkers where the references are being made so the joke, as it is, communicates. The Circle Line is the path leading up to the Statue of Liberty when you get to the island, just as Hicksville is a direct reference to Jersey as might be made by a resident of NYC. In these two cases the location has not been changed at all, just stated in a more universally recognisable format for people in, say, Toronto who might not otherwise catch the reference. Rent is also definitively set in New York, though. CATS is implicity british by Eliot's poetry, I think, though its ability to be universal has long been in the marketing scheme, and that is how I choose to enjoy it. Arguably, Rent wouldn't be Rent without NYC. |
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| Dvarg |
You mean, like the sound of the words?
In my opinion, that and staying close to the original text isn't mutually exclusive. A good translation is a convincing combination of something as close as possible to the original meaning and a good flow and right sound of the words. |
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| Moongewl |
Not just the sound, but the feel. It's hard to explain, and I think part of it's because I think exclusively in words(most people thing in a combination of words and vague, generalized pictures). It's kind of a combination of sound, denotation, connotation, and personal opinion of the word, to create a specific resonance within a person. Like--and this is going to sound really bizarre, so keep in mind that they're extreme examples--the word "panties" just makes my skin crawl, while the word "frenetic" makes me feel like my heart skipped a beat.
As I explained above, the sound's only part of it. That's why we wind up with so many different translations of various works. Word A in one translation becomes Word B, while in another it becomes Word C. It's up to the translator to decide which part of the word's feel is the most important, and that means he or she must distort the original work by taking it through his or her own lens of opinion and values. That's where you're forced to sacrifice the resonance of a word or combination of words and replace the word(s) with something that, while it may have a close dictionary definition, just can't have the same complete meaning. Add to that the need to maintain verse form, and the incompatibilities between the first and second language, and you distort it like a high-quality image being compressed into a GIF: maybe you can tell what it is, but it's very different in its end form. |
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| Carbucketty |
One thing that you should also remember is the genre of the TSE's Cat poems. They're part of the Nonsense genre of English literature. Similar poems are by Edward Lear's poems and Lewis Carrol's Jabberwocky. (The Owl and the Pussy Cat is throught by one critic to be inspiration for the cat poems)
Nonsense verse celebrates words primarily for their sound. Like Moongewl expresses above, the words evoke a meaning. The cadence, the prosody, the nature of the rhymes (male, female, imperfect), alliteration, consonance, etc... Nonsense poets often make up words. Lear's famous example is the "Runcible spoon" Carrol's Jabberwocky is the mother of all portmanteau nonce poems: "'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves Did gyre and gimble in the wabe; All mimsy were the borogoves, And the mome raths outgrabe." Jabberwocky is another good example for translating this type of poem. The better translations create their own portmanteaus with native words. http://www76.pair.com/keithlim/jabberwocky/translations/index.html Eliot created words and names for the Cat poems too: Jellicle, Pollicle, Munkustrap, Quaxo, Coricopat, etc. The origin of Jellicle and Pollicle are well known. However, there's also the clever pun on "not being there" that's contained in the proper surname "Macavity". A good example of a name translation is "Van Zonderen" which is also a surname, but conveys a similar meaning of "not being there" that the US name does. Then there's the translation for rhyming. For example, this phrase uses alliteration, asonance and consonence The Magical Mister Mistoffelees De Dekselse Doktor Diavolo Some translations even create new puns: When I asked a Hungarian friend to look at the lyrics for the show, she giggled said what a horrible name "MacDouglas" to use for Growltiger. It's same sound as "Megdöglesz" -- which is verb that's used when animals die and very crude way to say a person died. (I guess similar to "Poped his clogs" or "Pushing up daisy") I thought it was a wonderful pun on the poem. Her reaction to that name (and some of the others) is what I like about adjusting translations and setting to suit local needs. It makes the show more accessable and more funny. I've seen the show over 20 time and the only time that the "Dick Whittington's Cat" line has ever gotten a laugh was in London. A reference to a funny tale Mayor of London and his cat really doesn't convey any humor or interest to most North Americans (and I would assume other non-UK English speaking areas of the world as well.) Eliot also used English place names for the sound and rhyming. This very evident in the last stanza of Skimbleshanks: You were fast asleep at Crewe and so you never knew... You were sleeping all the while he was busy at Carlisle,... But you saw him at Dumfries, where he summons the police... when you get to Gallowgate there you do not have to wait... Some translations turn this section into a passage about the train ride and don't mention geographical locations. Some translations use one or two of these cities and make the rest into a generic passage about a train ride. I think this causes one to loose some of the fell of the poem. The French translation uses French/Belgian cities: On arrive à Chantilly Tout le monde est assoupi ... Ils dorment encore à Beauvais Quand je descends sur le quai ... Ils pourraient me voir à Lille Parler au sergent de ville ... C'est l'arrivée à Bruxelles Edgar déborde de zéle ... You get the geographical aspect along with the internally rhymed word pairs. I find that more interesting. (I don't care for all of this translation, though "Edgar" isn't the best name for Skimbleshanks.) |
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| Dvarg |
Look, I am aware of all this. Translating is very hard, and one must make many compromises. The words in a translation cannot have the exact same connotations as the words in the original - it is after all two different languages. When I say that a translator should stay as close as possible to the original text, I naturally mean that they have to take the connotations etc into consideration. That is staying close to the original text. Changing random aspects of the text like location just because the translated text nevertheless will be different than the original text is violating the intention of the author. Particularly when we are talking about "translatng" an English text to American.
Thanks for a very good explanation (although I'm sure most of us are familiar with these terms). In my opinion, defending the change of for example location of literary reasons is different from defending them because the audience is too dumd to know anyway or that a text nevertheless changes in translaton, so it doesn't matter what a translator does at any rate. To sum up - when it comes to translation, the literary devices (which naturally are of great importance in nonsense verse) should in my opinion serve the content rather than vice versa. I am willing to admit this might be a matter of taste. |
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| Moongewl |
Well, you kept making this argument about how the translator can maintain the tone and spirit. What if keeping the locations contributes to the loss of tone and spirit?
And what about changing the characters' names? Do you have a problem with that? Because that's much the same thing. I wasn't making the argument so much for the American version, btw. |
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| Dvarg |
My opinion is that such changes should be considered very carefully, and only chosen if there are very strong reasons for them. As a rule, I'd prefer if the translator were able to keep the tone and spirit other ways than changing concrete and indisputable aspects of the text like names and location - for example the way I described how tone and spirit was kept in the translation of My Fair Lady. |
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| Moongewl |
The names have far more resonance to an English reader than many of the locations. For instance, Skimbleshanks = skitter + nimble + shanks(legs). Skimbleshanks is supposed to sound like a fast, agile character. But because these were inventions by Eliot, they're changed to evoke the same resonance and feeling in another language. Keeping the names can evoke less of a meaning than changing them, or even change the meaning entirely. (It's why I always giggle about the idea of translating "Finding Nemo" into Latin. In Latin, "nemo" means "no one.")
Why not do the same thing to the locations? Why not change them to something that means something to the audience? |
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| Dvarg |
Because 1. names (of persons and places), along with carrying symbolic meanings, also are names. 2. today, most audiences are educated enough to understand a lot of symbolic meaning of names, although they're in another language, particularly when they're in English. Spoon feeding us with obvious symbolism often sounds forced. I'm still not saying it's always wrong to change names or locations, I just think such changes should be considered very carefully. One rather interresting chage in name I can thinkof, is a norwegian translation by Andre Bjerke of The Raven by Poe. The translation is actually sublime, because Andre Bjerke was a genious translator. My main problem with it is that to rhyme properly with the Norwegian equivalent of "neven more" ("aldri mer") he changed the name of Lenore to Cythere. This doesn't change the meaing f the poem at all, it is - as I mentioned - overall a sublime translation (Andre Bjerke even included a footnote to the translation explaining the similar symbolic meanings of the names "Lenore" and "Cythere"). Still, everybody knows that the name in the poem originally is Lenore, and it skews the way one reads it. The translation would therefore have been better if he had found another solution (which probably is impossible - another Norwegian poet was able to translate The Raven keeping the Lenore name, but in my opinion it became a less accurate translation overall). |
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| Moongewl |
Yeah, but Cats attracts a strong audience among children and young teens. Look at how many youngsters we have on the board and how many of us became fans at a young age. At eleven or twelve, a location we've heard of would have a lot more impact than a random place in London.
I agree. Maybe we're looking at this differently: I'm thinking of the really spiffy professional productions. Not the amateur-/cheap-looking versions, but the ones where real thought seems to have gone into them. I can't imagine a complete translation that wasn't thought-out and well-prepared, because...well, why bother going to all the trouble of translating the musical if you're not going to do it well? (Yes, I know, money. But still.) |
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| Alonza0 |
Yeah, so I'm going to take a risk at sounding stupid and go back to the original question of why can't Broadway Cats have British accents.
Along with the many plausible solutions already listed, there is the fact that, for the average American who wants to see what all the buzz about Cats is about, a British accent incorporated into the sometimes fast tempo of the music would be more difficult to understand, especially for children, as Cats is family-oriented. Sure, we'd be able to understand it for the most part, but wouldn't it be a lot easier for the performers to sing how they're used to singing and have the audience be able to understand all of it? Sure it's compromising some accuracy as the musical refers to British places, but it makes things a heck of a lot easier, I'd imagine, and a bit less confusing for the audience. And it makes for a lot fewer obnoxious Americans storming out of the theatre demanding to know why the hell everything has to be foreign nowadays. (Ick.) I'm not posting this as something to argue over, so if you're looking for a comeback from me, don't expect to get one. I just was trying to see things from the point of view of whoever had the say over which accent to use. Maybe it had something to do with why they used American accents, maybe it didn't. I don't really care. And before you go yelling at me for being one of those obnoxious Americans that's closed to foreign culture, I'll tell you straight that I don't agree at all with what I suggested, I was only, like I said, trying to imagine an alternate reason. Personally, I think it'd be a bad reason, but I've learned not to under-estimate what people will do for popularity. *shrugs* |
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| Yip1982 |
CATS OBCI can understand the concern you have with the accents on the recording, but I don't think they are a serious problem. I konw they can't help but pronounce words like "ask" and "knew" in their way, but there are some redeeming things about it. When Timothy Scott as Mistoffelees sings the line "from a vase which was commonly said to be Ming", he pronounces the word vase the English way. Wendy Edmead pronounces the word master in the line "for he's a master criminal who can defy the Law" with a longer a sound. But what appeals to me in this recording is the irrepressible energy.I'd also like to add something about the recording quality. Yes, it sounds rather boxy and compressed, but for all its technical limitations the remastered version seems to have done it better justice. It has expanded and opened up the sound and given a more vivid, theatrical feel. It makes the original Geffen and Polydor CDs pale in comparison. |