Dvarg
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An amazon review I took personal offense fromOn the DVD of the Carnegie Hall concert - one star
| Quote: | Like Wagner, April 15, 2004
To paraphrase Noel Coward, Stephen Sondheim lacks talent to a remarkable degree. So, if you don't like it, don't listen to it (as I would like to say to the ladies' league of decency). There is a remarkable, darling old (Mary Rodgers) show called "The Mad Show" (with Linda Lavin and Jo Anne Worley), in it is a clunker called "The Boy From." I hated it before I ever knew who wrote it. Sondheim wrote it, an interpolation from the master. In "The Seven Percent Solution," a high octane cast Sherlock Holmes caper is a number sung I think in a brothel called "I Never Do Anything Twice." I winced and loathed it and would have bet money it was a German tune. The end credits gave it to Sondheim. It has been said Sondheim learned his trade from Hammerstein. Hammerstein didn't have much to teach, but he was better than this. A few years ago I made an effort to catch the Sondheim bug and bought many ($$$) CDs of Sondheim shows. God what a dismal, infuriating waste. The man has written only one popular song, "Send in the Clowns." I won't knock it by saying it's just a series of triads because lots of good songs are. But one? Sondheim's songs are insipid and weird and unpleasant to listen to, and as at least one person has said (and that one person is a comfort), you don't walk out of the theater humming them. Because you can't. This is good? Look at Lloyd Webber's songlist. Which would you rather hear? Ethel Merman went to her grave baffled by his success, I'll do the same. And talk about pretentious! In NYC I walked out of "Company" in a rage of ripped-off boredom, sat through "Follies" twice (because I liked the old actors, and if I have to name a favorite Sondheim show, it is this one), and watched that horrific totally unmusical "Sweeney Todd" (all the way through) on PBS. Oh yes. And that ridiculous rumor that Sondheim composed some of the dance music for "West Side Story." Only a tin ear would buy that one. And this review just covers his so-called music. Lyricwise, he has turned a few good phrases, but hardly enough to constitute a career. It's been said that the lyrics to songs are so unimportant that anyone can write them. That it just doesn't matter. Sondheim is no exception. Larry Hart is. Unless you already know Sondheim, or are from Manhattan, I advise you to rent this DVD before buying it. It stinks. |
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Joshua
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Oh My GOD!!! That guy is an idiot. Lyrics aren't important my ass.
BTW, I can hum Sondheim's music.
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Matthew
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...
I have tears in my eyes.
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Pannic
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Funny how so many of these user reviews that dump on Sondheim praise Andrew Lloyd Webber. Two reviews for the OBCR of Sweeney Todd gave it 2 stars, they were essentially said the exact same thing.
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theatre_grl
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O my goodness. Does this reviewer have hearing problems? How can anyone be honestly so against one of the best composers/lyricists of MT?
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shakalakababy
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Wow, i feel sorry for him. He must be a pretty miserable person if he can't enjoy sondheim. people like this are just sad.
I've never understood how people can say Sondheim's not hummable. I get sondheim songs stuck in my head constantly. In fact I was just humming "someone in a tree" while making a sandwich
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mastachen
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I can hum "God That's Good!" all day.
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theatre_grl
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he must just be a bad hummer.
edit: That sounded weird. I didn't mean the car 
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Not Dead Yet
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| theatre_grl wrote: | he must just be a bad hummer.
edit: That sounded weird. I didn't mean the car |
Thanks for making me laugh after I was so pissed off. This guy is ridiculous. A complete MORON.
The end.
No, wait. Not the end.
I would just like to say that Andrew Lloyd Webber is the absolute biggest joke as a composer I have ever had the misfortune to have to listen to. Yes, he can write a tune, but that is not all being a great composer takes. And also, it's people who idolize him as a musician are the ones that are KILLING THEATRE..
*exhale* 
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sallydurant
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Oh my God. I'm speechless.
I'm amazed that cretin can breathe unaided.
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Not Dead Yet
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| sallydurant wrote: |
I'm amazed that cretin can breathe unaided. |
Very nice...
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musicalFREEK
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how can they say that?
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Guinevere
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First of all, I like ALW. Always have. Always will. I do believe it is possible to like both ALW and Sondheim. I just wish people would stop bringing up the one compser when talking about the other. It really is comparing apples to oranges. They are different. Sure they were the two big composers "competing" for awhile, but musically they are different. If someone likes Sondheim better than ALW, I don't think this guy should ever get up the nerve to start a fight over it. I don't think that he should basically tell people that they would rather listen to ALW because maybe they wouldn't. I am just always annoyed with this "competition".
Second, this is exactly why I DON'T read those reviews on Amazon. They just infuriate me. Especially because these people write these reviews like they KNOW that what they think is the way it is. Meaning, if this person hates Sondhiem, then everyone should. Why is that? Because even though this person detests him, he obviously "knows" Sondheim better than anyone else in the entire world. Isn't it amazing how someone like this guy could know Sondheim's career so well even though he obviously doesn't like anything about him?
Third, what happened to people using the phrase "IN MY OPINION"?!?!?!?? I am so sick and tired of people stating their opinion like it is fact. In reality, it is nothing but their opinion!
Fourth, just because I have to say this (I probably will get slack for this), Ethel Merman went to her grave baffled by Sondheim's success? Well, I know that I have always known that I will go to my grave baffled by hers. You know what? That was IN MY OPINION. 
Finally, a person can't hum Sondheim's songs? That is just crazy. This comes from a person who has no ear for music. A person would be tone deaf if they really enjoyed the music of "Sweeney Todd", I suppose? Well, I recall having my nephew experience a little ST not that long ago. That was his first time hearing it and for the rest of the day he was humming "The Ballad"! I think that if a 12 year-old kid can pick up on a song that fast, then it must be "catchy" in some sort of way. My list of hummable songs vary from "Comedy Tonight" to "The Ballad of Czolgosz"! I, of course, cannot forget the "Dick Tracy" songs "Sooner or Later" and "What Can You Lose". I like those songs. Imagine if this person knew that!!!
I am a devoted Sondheim fanatic. What can I say? I just think people either have to listen to his music, and if they don't like it, shut up about it because others do, or just don't listen to his music at all. Why would this guy buy all of that music when he really had no idea whether he was going to like his music or not, anyway? I am just confused about that. That was just stupid on his part. Sondheim can't be blamed for him wasting his money. Sondheim didn't tell him to buy any of it. It seems to me that he is almost mad at him, and for that reason. I cannot stomach those Amazon reviews, anyway.
OK. My rant is done for the day.
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Laura
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What a MORON!!
I want to find this person and give him a very big slap... 
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Pounce
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| Not Dead Yet wrote: | | I would just like to say that Andrew Lloyd Webber is the absolute biggest joke as a composer I have ever had the misfortune to have to listen to. Yes, he can write a tune, but that is not all being a great composer takes. And also, it's people who idolize him as a musician are the ones that are KILLING THEATRE.. |
Being able to write a tune is all that is demanded. And people like his tunes. I was just listening to my recently purchased JCS Hightlights CD and the music is incredible.  ALW shows have shown popularity and longevity so I don't know what more there is to ask. And ALW's shows breathed new life into musical theater. I like Sondheim's shows but Broadway would be close to death if we relied on shows of that ilk. Shows like ALW's PotO and Schwartz's Wicked anchor Broadway and keep it relevant as an industry.
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postmodern-mango-salsa
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To quote an equally unmusical musical as Sweeney Todd:
"Why, it's the most disgusting, atrocious thing ever to [be written] in America!"
Seriously, how can anyone say that his songs are WEIRD?
I know very few ppl who can listen to one and say "oh, that is SO true!"
Apparently this is the same sort of fool that says "as soon as the bassonist starts doing his thing, turn it off" to a recording of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring...
uggghhh... words can't describe my disgust with this poor waste of a soul, life, space, air, and resources....
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Dvarg
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| Pounce wrote: | | ALW shows have shown popularity and longevity so I don't know what more there is to ask. |
Some interesting thoughts?
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Kragey
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Guinevere said pretty much everything I wanted to say. I'll just chime in and add that, for every bad Sondheim review, I can find ten that beam about the man. So I'm fine with one or two people ranting about how "horrible" he is.
I do disagree about people having to say "in my opinion." Of course it's your opinion, it's coming out of your mouth, LOL.
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Snow_White
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That review made me want to start dishing out some firm, open-palmed smacks to the mouth.
And I cried a little bit when he said that "totally unmusical Sweeney Todd" or whatever it was. I actually died a little on the inside.
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moongoddess82
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Wow... if there was ever a reason to worry about the Sondheim Fandom and the direction of debate on this board- this thread would be it.
How can you guys be not only so narrow minded but HOSTILE to an opposing viewpoint.?
I have news for you- Sondheim isn't everyone's cup of tea and quite honestly, some of his music IS weird...he's an acquired taste, I'd say, and he isn't perfect. He's very good at what he does, but you guys lift him up to this almost god-like status and quite honestly, it kind of scares me.
In my humble, personal opinion, musically there are other shows FAR better than anything I've heard from Sondheim- Titanic, The Secret Garden and Parade to name a few. Sonheim works so hard at putting so much intellectual symoblism into his shows that I think sometimes he forgets the beauty of being taken away by a soaring melody, or using beautiful music to create negative emotion.
I'm not saying that he should compose fluff either, or that all of his music lacks meldoy or beauty. What I'm saying is his music is a little.. unbalanced. At times he completely forsakes style for stubstance. I watched the segment about how he included that (I think) gregorian chant into Sweeney by altering the chord progessions etc. Someone on this board said they didn't even notice it until he mentioned it, and then said it was a wonderful musical decision- how is that wonderful when Sondheim had to POINT IT OUT TO YOU? IF no one can recognize it because of how much it's altered, how is that being a "genius"? It's for his own little gratification- no one else can even tell it's there.
You'll notice that many times I come on this board to bash Sondheim- and I must sound like I dislike him, however this really isn't the case. I am playing devil's advocate somewhat to keep things balanced on this forum-and this thread makes me want to push against the idolatry that seems to exist here even more.
Open up your minds and accept criticsm. He's human, he has flaws.
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MusicalGal1194
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The person who wrote that review needs to spend some serious time with Sondheim fans, esp. the ones who frequent these threads, like I. Because when he does, he will soon realize that if he ever dares to publish such swill-to quote Sweeney Todd; "This IS piss!"-on any website ever again, he will be utterly and completely beaten to a pulp by more than a hundred or so devoted fans (from MdN) who happen to have in their possesion a series of heavy props and/or baseball bats.
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Tenalto
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moongoddess82 wrote:
| Quote: | | I watched the segment about how he included that (I think) gregorian chant into Sweeney by altering the chord progessions etc. Someone on this board said they didn't even notice it until he mentioned it, and then said it was a wonderful musical decision- how is that wonderful when Sondheim had to POINT IT OUT TO YOU? |
That was me. I should like to point out that I had never heard the "Dies Irae" theme until he played it as a demonstration at the beginning of the documentary. After that, I knew what it sounded like. Then, when he showed how it had been worked in, I realized what he had done. I can hear it every time now. It's amazing how things make sense when you understand what's being done. Once I knew what the "Dies Irae" sounded like, I could hear it all through the show, even if it wasn't pointed out.
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Dvarg
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| moongoddess82 wrote: | | At times he completely forsakes style for stubstance. |
Can you point out some examples?
| moongoddess82 wrote: | | I watched the segment about how he included that (I think) gregorian chant into Sweeney by altering the chord progessions etc. Someone on this board said they didn't even notice it until he mentioned it, and then said it was a wonderful musical decision- how is that wonderful when Sondheim had to POINT IT OUT TO YOU? IF no one can recognize it because of how much it's altered, how is that being a "genius"? It's for his own little gratification- no one else can even tell it's there.. |
Not everything needs to be blatant to be good. Subtle touches like that creates a consistent style and leaves almost constantly things to be discovered. It keeps the shows alive after you've heard it a lot of times.
| moongoddess82 wrote: | | Open up your minds and accept criticsm. He's human, he has flaws. |
Have you heard a soondheimist discuss the I Feel Pretty lyrics, for exaple? We disvuss his flaws all the time.
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lanilovesyew
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I take offense to anything that critcizes Sondheim. So yeah. That sucks...
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Mungojerrie_rt
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I don't like reviews that say something is bad, but don't give a reason. It's all very well to say that something has bad music, but what is bad exactly? Give what you don't like about it so that people reading can gage how your tastes compare to their's, so that they can see if the review ir reliable for them and their tastes.
Also, to some one who takes personal offence at a review on a website: Build a bridge.
*Wanders off badly singing 'Last Midnight'*
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Robinflamingo
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Here's the thing. Sondheim is sophisticated, and complicated and not for newbies. It's like if the first alcoholic drink you ever had was a scotch rocks. It would make you choke and gag. But a wine cooler tastes like soda pop, and is easy to drink.
That's the issue here. Sondheim is not easy, and that's why Sondheimists often get the rap of being snobs. Truthfully, I appreciate Sondheim more with every listening. Some of it I don't love immediately, although I've never hated anything. Miller's Son, Send in the Clowns, Agony, Love I hear, Ladies Who Lunch? Instant love. Liasons, Sunrise Letter, Thinking? Had to listen to. Sondheim is fine scotch.
ALW is instant. Love, hate, bam. Yes, you can hum his stuff, but some of it I wouldn't want to...a lot of it I do. I love Joseph. I admit it. That doesn't make me less of a Sondheim afficianado. It just makes me eclectic in my tastes, which has been said many times ALW is a wine cooler.
So, let the poor unsophisticated drab have his uninformed opinion. More for us. 
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Mungojerrie_rt
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I liked Into the Woods the first time I saw it. So I'm not sure that analogy holds up.
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Robinflamingo
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| Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | I liked Into the Woods the first time I saw it. So I'm not sure that analogy holds up. |
Sure it does. I had Agony in the lovable list, and it's a matter of preference anyway. ITW is one of the most accessible of Sondheim's works. Now if the first piece of theatre you ever saw was...SiTPwG, then you might be singing a different tune.
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Pannic
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| Robinflamingo wrote: | | Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | I liked Into the Woods the first time I saw it. So I'm not sure that analogy holds up. |
Sure it does. I had Agony in the lovable list, and it's a matter of preference anyway. ITW is one of the most accessible of Sondheim's works. Now if the first piece of theatre you ever saw was...SiTPwG, then you might be singing a different tune. |
Likely, not one from Sunday.
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Dvarg
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Actually, the worst thing about this review is that it claims that lyrics are essentially worthless in songs, when imo they are the most important part of a song.
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Salome
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exactly.the music is secondary to the lyric. them usic compliments the word and makes them 'soar" in the words of alan lerner.
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Sweeney Hyde
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| Robinflamingo wrote: | | Mungojerrie_rt wrote: | | I liked Into the Woods the first time I saw it. So I'm not sure that analogy holds up. |
Sure it does. I had Agony in the lovable list, and it's a matter of preference anyway. ITW is one of the most accessible of Sondheim's works. Now if the first piece of theatre you ever saw was...SiTPwG, then you might be singing a different tune. |
So many people are introduced to Sondheim through ItW. I was (appart from Forum) too. It paved the way for Sweeney. From Sweeney I went to ALNM I think...and I didn't like it all that much on the first listen. Then I read the script and loved it. Same with Company except I saw it instead of read it.
The point is, Robin is a genuis and absolutely right about this.
I didn't understand Sunday even after reading it...which I actually did before hearing it. Then I heard it and got it a bit more. The more I listened the more I understood. Then I saw the DVD and loved it. Then I saw the revival and loved it as well. Sondheim is just...tough...like she said...and he takes a good bit of preparation to like...like she said.
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