[Stage-Princess]

One of the local theatres has put on "the Sound of Music" (I was too late too audition! ) and Maria is an african-american woman, I don' think this should make a difference for this woman is EXTREMLY talented, the reviews are good but what are your thoughts on it? A Julie Andrews actress or an african american one?

P.S I'm not being racist so don't even go there

[ILoveToSing2010]

I think thats fine. I African American can be a Nun and a nanny.

[Celeste_SM]

Doesn't matter to me. I guess it could add an extra layer of nuance, if the director wanted to take it that way, but it's not necessary.

[LisaKitty]

If she can sing the role, act the role, and looks the right age for the role, I don't see why not. In fact, I think it's great that the director decided to take a less traditional approach to casting Maria.

If this were a show where race was a major theme or plot point in the story, that would be a different story. But in SOM? Why not?

[hud]

that is awesome!! Its' great that a black woman got to play Maria. I'm a black man. Is it possible for me to try out for Maxx?

[Salome]

Maria shouldnt be African American. she is an historical character.Max is fictionalized..that could work.

[what_the_heck013]

I'm racist and I hate black people so I think Maria should be only white.

[hud]

this is America what_the_heck013. Wake up to the 21rst century!!

[Aella]

[Luc]

[Set_Buildin_Dad]

It is an interesting idea and could work well. The nazi party hated blacks so this could be an additional reason for their persecution of the Von Trapp family.
Besides, if the girl had the best acting and singing chops she should get the role.

[Ford Prefect]

Austria, 1939. A small convent up in the Alps has a very young postulant who is encouraged to go out and work as a nanny. Most alpine (country) people had never even SEEN a black person. This was a remote area in that time.

At the risk of being overly sensitive to the time, place and culture that is the setting for this musical (and seeing as how it's based on a true story), the likelihood that Maria would have been anything but Teutonic is miniscule, and so having a black woman playing the part requires a huge suspension of disbelief.

If she's good enough it shouldn't matter. But she'd have to be damn good.

[Fantine]

It's THEATRE.

[hud]

good answer.

[IndigoMedusa]

[Salome]

[Adie]

[GungaDin]

[quote="Fantine"]It's THEATRE.[/quote]

That's a stupid reply. So if they were doing a musical version of Barack Obama's life, how would it look if the cast a white or Asian woman?

And if Maria were black, then the Nazis would've swooped right DOWN on that house. Unless they were Afro-Austrian Nazis in which case, they would probably let the black Maria go.

[Disney-Bway27]

There's already been a musical based on Obama's life, and that's a completely different deal. Casting a WOMAN to play a historical MAN is very different.

On this matter, I think Maria really shouldn't be played by an African American...there are some roles out there that can be played by any race but Mario von Trapp is simply not one of them. She was a historical person. Mrs. Potts on the other hand, go ahead and cast an African American for her because nobody would care. Maria was a real person.

[jackissensational]

[ActingDude17]

Theatre is about telling a story in a believable way. An African Maria would absolutely ruin the show for me. I just wouldn't be able to believe it. It's not historically correct that an African would be in the Alps.

Sure, some people think it's okay for an African-American to play Maria, but it's terrible if a white person plays a role like Collins in Rent. Ah, such a twisted world we live in.

And Jack: Obama is just as much White as he is Black. Shouldn't either race be able to play him?

[Disney-Bway27]

In Obama's case, though, black is clearly the dominant race. In other words, the African American genes dominated the Caucasian genes.

[ActingDude17]

Can we just get back on topic? I don't see how Obama and Maria relate to each other.

[GungaDin]

[quote="ActingDude17"]
And Jack: Obama is just as much White as he is Black. Shouldn't either race be able to play him?[/quote]

Technically; but he considers himself more Afro-American than white. Besides, his footnote in history will be the first African-American elected president. Mr. Nixon, a "Black Irish" person, was the first "black" man elected president. And he already has an opera after him -- NIXON IN CHINA!!

For those who think it's OK to cast Maria black, then maybe "Coal" in RAGTIME should be played by white actor -- after all, it is fictional? I mean who gives a damn about Doctorow's story so long as you are HIP and perfectly P.C.? Just tell people you are doing blind-casting so people who don't like it will not be duped into buying tickets for a TOTALLY Unbelievable show.

[GungaDin]

[quote="ActingDude17"]
And Jack: Obama is just as much White as he is Black. Shouldn't either race be able to play him?[/quote]

Technically; but he considers himself more Afro-American than white. Besides, his footnote in history will be the first African-American elected president. Mr. Nixon, a "Black Irish" person, was the first "black" man elected president. And he already has an opera after him -- NIXON IN CHINA!!

For those who think it's OK to cast Maria black, then maybe "Coal" in RAGTIME should be played by white actor -- after all, it is fictional? I mean who gives a damn about Doctorow's story so long as you are HIP and perfectly P.C.? Just tell people you are doing blind-casting so people who don't like it will not be duped into buying tickets for a TOTALLY Unbelievable show.

[thegirlfromack]

In order to convey to the audience a story, the audience must work, also, to suspend disbelief sometimes. If we, as performers and audience members, cannot use our imaginations, then every show in history will seem bland, uninteresting and, at times, confusing to us.

Everyone should just reflect on the art form and notice that without taking risks, shows would be insipid and tired. Seeing something new, interesting, and, most importantly, different, keeps the audience members comming back for more. We want to see new visions... without new visions we remain an ignorant race.

Without ignorance this thread wouldn't exist... right?

Ps. this whole argument reminds me of that scene in CAMP where they cast an African American boy as Teveya (sp?) in Fiddler and a white girl as Effie in Dream Girls

[GungaDin]

[quote="thegirlfromack"]In order to convey to the audience a story, the audience must work, also, to suspend disbelief sometimes. If we, as performers and audience members, cannot use our imaginations, then every show in history will seem bland, uninteresting and, at times, confusing to us.

Everyone should just reflect on the art form and notice that without taking risks, shows would be insipid and tired. Seeing something new, interesting, and, most importantly, different, keeps the audience members comming back for more. We want to see new visions... without new visions we remain an ignorant race.

Without ignorance this thread wouldn't exist... right?

Ps. this whole argument reminds me of that scene in CAMP where they cast an African American boy as Teveya (sp?) in Fiddler and a white girl as Effie in Dream Girls[/quote]

Yeah, yeah - that's all well and good. But you shouldn't be too P.C. at the expense of people laying $75 and upwards hoping to see a show that will make them feel good -- and fall flat. Remember that. You also have an obligation to your paying audience to render something that is believable. They are PAYING YOU to be entertained, and part of that is you, as performers and artists, doing the work for them. Why should I pay $100 to do ALL the work? I can do that at home myself.

I'm surprised the R&H Organization allowed that to happen or unless that company "failed to tell" R&H that they were casting a black girl as Maria? And of course, the RHO was trapped because if they made a fuss then they would be branded 'racist.'

As for me, yes, I'm looking forward to the next state-of-the-PC-art production of a black drag Mrs. Anna (with an Asian son, Louis) playing a schoolteacher to a gay, albino WASP King Mongkut (pssst, the Krahlome is his lover and they're fighting over Lun Tha)!! And "Mrs. Anna" is torn between Lady Thiang and Tuptim!! After all, this will expand my horizons, right?? NOT ON MY TIME AND DOLLAR if I can help it!!

[Disney-Bway27]

I dunno. I still say Maria should always be played by a white actress...it's nothing related to my racial preferences, it's just the character.

I agree with ActingDude, as well...having a black Maria wouldn't be believable in the slightest.

[allieoop]

I'm just curious, not trying to prove a point or anything because I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as most who are posting in this thread, but, what is the casting called in like, Spring Awakening?
The races aren't realistic for that time period and location, right?
Isn't there a name for that type of casting?

[thegirlfromack]

[Disney-Bway27]

^ Building off of what she said:

The Sound of Music has such a heavy nonfiction and historical influence that having Maria of any ethnicity other than white is just denying fact. As my dad put it, "That's like having Anna in The King and I be played by a Hispanic woman or Christine in The Phantom of the Opera played by an African American woman. It's denying history."

So there's my opinion.

[Adie]

The only two things that could go wrong with the casting would be.
1. If Maria Rainer stuck out like a sore thumb. IE) The rest of the cast being blonde haired and blue-eyed.
2. She can't act sing or dance.

This type of casting occurs all the time in straight theatre and opera- very Brecht

[jackissensational]

[ActingDude17]

[jackissensational]

^That's what I was talking about... a black Maria would be distracting and what not.

[allieoop]

[GungaDin]

[quote="Adie"]
This type of casting occurs all the time in straight theatre and opera- very Brecht[/quote]

I agree with Opera. But Opera is a VERY ARTIFICIAL medium. WHo really sings for 4 hours? Even Bollywood characters take a rest ya know. Straight- theatre? Hmmmm, sometimes it is distracting.

[ActingDude17]

[GungaDin]

How about Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther King, Jr., played by white actors? That would be inspired casting requiring audiences to exercise their imaginations and feel better afterwards!!

[Adie]

[Disney-Bway27]

[GungaDin]

[quote="Adie"]

What are you getting at? What do you mean opera is an artificial medim? As in not believable?[/quote]

Since when was "Opera" believable? It is ONE OF THE MOST ARTIFICAL and PRETENTIOUS media ever. That it's managed to survive into the 21st century is amazing and only because there are always pretentious people in every generation who will want to show off their wealth and be seen at such events. A lot of opera-goers in the USA don't even understand HALF of what is being sung.

[Adie]

[Disney-Bway27]

Opera is THEATRE. It's not supposed to be believable, it's supposed to be damn entertaining!

See, here's the thing...believability IS a factor in musical theatre, but really not as much opera. Opera itself is out there, but musicals require much more believability. A Hispanic Anna in The King and I...that'd be crap. An Asian Maria in West Side Story...major crap. African American Maria in The Sound of Music...unbelievable. In opera, you could have a Hispanic singer play Mimi in La boheme and honestly, nobody would give a sh*t. Under all that makeup, nobody would be able to tell anyway. At the end of the day, the most important aspect in opera is whether or not you have the pipes for it.

[what_the_heck013]

^I don't know, I feel that America is such a melting pot culture that at least there the casting choices that you described sound okay to me.
Where I live in Southern California, being hispanic is essentially the same thing as being white. Nobody would notice that Anna wouldn't be white. Likewise, I've seen many Caucasian Maria's in WSS. An asian Maria would just look all the more Puerto Rican than a white girl.
And as for a black Maria, Pearl Bailey played Dolly Levi in Hello Dolly. Granted, it was an all-black production, but does THAT make sense? No.

I think it's hilair how this thread has had three lives.

[GungaDin]

[quote="Disney-Bway27"]Opera is THEATRE. It's not supposed to be believable, it's supposed to be damn entertaining!

See, here's the thing...believability IS a factor in musical theatre, but really not as much opera. Opera itself is out there, but musicals require much more believability. A Hispanic Anna in The King and I...that'd be crap. An Asian Maria in West Side Story...major crap. African American Maria in The Sound of Music...unbelievable. In opera, you could have a Hispanic singer play Mimi in La boheme and honestly, nobody would give a sh*t. Under all that makeup, nobody would be able to tell anyway. At the end of the day, the most important aspect in opera is whether or not you have the pipes for it.[/quote]

/\ ABSOLUTELY, Disney-Bway27.

And actually, to even emphasize the POINT of this silly thread. Take [b]FINIAN'S RAINBOW[/b]. You have to cast the white people WHITE and the black people BLACK -- with the exception of Senator Rawkins...who starts out the show 'white' but is then mistakenly turned BLACK. It takes a bit of stage wizardry to do this -- to the point of some productions even casting identical twins to play the 2 sides of the role -- But the POINT IS...if you did NOT STICK to the racial requirements of the story, the SHOW WOULDN'T HAVE ANY POINT!!

Sorry, Adie, except for DIE FLEDERMAUS, PHANTOM and Zefferelli's filmed operas, I'm afraid I can't take opera seriously as an art form.

[GungaDin]

[quote="what_the_heck013"]

1. Nobody would notice that Anna wouldn't be white.

2. Likewise, I've seen many Caucasian Maria's in WSS. An asian Maria would just look all the more Puerto Rican than a white girl.

3. And as for a black Maria, Pearl Bailey played Dolly Levi in Hello Dolly. Granted, it was an all-black production, but does THAT make sense? No.
.[/quote]

1. Uhmmm, I think if you're a college-educated professional paying $100 for your admission, you would.

2. Uhmmm, have you noticed that the Miss Puerto Ricos who have won the Miss Universe crowns ARE Caucasians - e.g., Marisol Malaret, Dayanara Torres to name two. Natalie Wood is of Russia heritage actually. So why would a Caucasian WSS Maria be strange?

3. Pearl Bailey in an all-black production of HELLO, DOLLY made [b]marketing sense!! [/b]That was the whole point of David Merrick's ploy. He was a good businessman. And that had NOTHING to do with turning a real-life character like Maria von Trapp into a race which SHE WASN'T -- being P.C or not.

[what_the_heck013]

Whatever, apparently the world is different in hick towns.

Racist.

[GungaDin]

Blind, ignorant neo-racist!!

[Pannic]

If I'm in charge of casting, and the black person auditioning for the part is better than the white person auditioning, I'll cast the black person, even if the part is supposed white, and vice-versa. The end.

[GungaDin]

delete

[GungaDin]

[size=18]Do you really think the Gershwin estate would have you cast 'white actors' for their PORGY & BESS...or RAISIN...or LILIES OF THE FIELD??

How about a black Scarlett O'Hara...or a white Joe in SHOW BOAT??

Better think again.[/size]

[what_the_heck013]

Okay, here's the difference: those are shows in which race is a major theme.

A white Sarah and a black Mother in Ragtime would make no sense.
A white Baker's Wife and a black Witch in Into the Woods would be just fine.

I mean, when I did Our Town, I played Wally. Mr. Webb (my father) was played by a black guy. Does that make sense? No. It's theatre. The same guy later played Conrad in Bye Bye Birdie.

[GungaDin]

It depends on the show. It's a case by case basis. But there is such a thing as 'correct' historical context and when, as in INTO THE WOODS, where it's fantasy.

(I saw TITANIC on Broadway -- and guess what? There was a black couple in the first class passengers. Now, you know this was an American production -- and it was slightly jarring.

I also saw another production of PAINT YOUR WAGON where Ben Rumson and his daughter (the leads) were African-American. Rumson was terrific but his daughter was less than so -- and it really undercut one's enjoyment of an otherwise terrific production. I mean I paid good $$ to see a good show and in return, [b]I expect [/b]to see a professional production WITH INTEGRITY for my money!!!)

But you still couldn't -- or I wouldn't -- do it in THE SOUND OF MUSIC. It is based on reality and it takes place in a specific TIME AND PLACE which you are trying to recreate in a show!! You are doing yourself, the show AND the audience a disservice to do otherwise or just to prove you or your company are P.C.

There are enough shows that you can cast color-blind; just as there are enough shows that you can't and at the same time respect the intentions of the authors and/or the correct ethnicities of the characters. It is called working with INTEGRITY and GOOD FAITH. Not just being P.C. for the heck of it!!

[what_the_heck013]

Just for you, GungaDin, I am now inspired to do a racially diverse production of the Sound of Music (a la Disney's Roders and Hammerstein's Cinderella) just to piss you off and prove that it is equally as beautiful as an all-white production.

And guess what? J-Hud is gonna' play Maria.

[GungaDin]

[quote="what_the_heck013"]Just for you, GungaDin, I am now inspired to do a racially diverse production of the Sound of Music (a la Disney's Roders and Hammerstein's Cinderella) just to piss you off and prove that it is equally as beautiful as an all-white production.

And guess what? J-Hud is gonna' play Maria.[/quote]

And your point being?

Actually, I beat you to the punch. I had posted this on "The Sound of Music" discussion board on IMDB:

"In commemoration of President-elect Barack Osama's victory, Oprah Winfrey's Harpo Productions has just announced plans for a remake of THE SOUND OF MUSIC. THe likely casting is:

Maria...either Beyonce or Jennifer Hudson
Captain von Trapp...Denzel Washington or Brian Stokes Mitchell
Baroness Elsa - Tina Turner
Mother Superior - Whoopi Goldberg
Liesl - Michaeline Jackson

Other roles will soon be announced with the transition team...

Oh, and the remake will be shot in Kenya rather than in Austria..."

**** sticks tongue out ****

[Pannic]

[Adie]

I'd rather see a good black Maria than a girl who looks the part, yet can't act and is tone deaf.
And like I said earlier, as long as they don't stand out to much.

[thegirlfromack]

"The forums are alive... with the sound of hate crime...."

[what_the_heck013]

[ActingDude17]

[Pannic]

I don't have any double standards. I'm fine if a black person plays Enoch Snow, or if a White Person plays Joe.

Let Jonathan Pryce play The Engineer. Let John Reed play Ko-Ko.

Incidentally, wasn't the person who played Tom Collins in the workshops originally Caucasian? It wasn't until Jesse L. Martin joined that he was considered an African-American character. Or maybe I'm wrong...

[what_the_heck013]

See, here's the deal. Nowhere in the script does it say that Maria is white. Sure, the character is based on a real person, but many things have been changed from reality to the musical (the gender of the oldest child and many names). Why not Maria's race? And I honestly do NOT consider Maria von Trapp to be a historical character since her fame (in countries other than Germany) comes from The Sound of Music. Heck, I would even cast a black, asian, or hispanic Louise in Gypsy and SHE is a "historical figure"/"real live person".

The only exception, to me, might be ACTUAL historical figures, such as the characters in 1776 or Assassins. Even then, I would still cast a black Booth in Assassins or a Mexican Franklin in 1776 if they are better actors/singers than my other choices.

If you are watching the Sound of Music and say to yourself "Gosh, that's unbelievable because Maria is black", you should get yourself checked out because you should look past one's skin color. After all, we are all human beings.

This thread is 2 and a half years old now. I say we lay it to rest.

[Pannic]

[what_the_heck013]

Woops! Major typo. Fixed that. Thanks, man!

[ActingDude17]

Okay. If that's your stance, WTH, I wanna be the Scarecrow in The Wiz and Tom Collins in Rent.

[what_the_heck013]

Then go for it. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong, I don't think there is a single mention in the script or score of either The Wiz or Rent that either the Scarecrow or Tom Collins is black. As long as you have the vocal chops for both parts, I can't see why not.

[Pannic]

Well, The Wiz was originally conceived as an all-black version of the Wizard of Oz. But personally, I don't really think it matters, because I'm so politically correct.

As for Rent, wasn't the Collins in the original workshop white? It wasn't until Jesse L. Martin got the part that it became an African-American role. And mainly for Rent, I don't think that each individual character's race matters, so long as the whole cast is diverse.

[what_the_heck013]

Yep, Pat Briggs was the original Collins. Google images him.
As for the rest of the cast, I agree. As long as they are all diverse. I would have no problem with an Asian Marc, a black Mimi, and a white Collins.

[ActingDude17]

[Disney-Bway27]

^ Asian Mark = Win.

This got nasty really fast. Basically, we all have different opinions, but saying things like "Well, I suppose things are different in hick-towns" and "Blind neo-racist!!" are absolutely unnecessary and very rude. Geez, guys. My opinion is that Maria is a part that absolutely has to be white. It it was intentionally an all-black production, it'd be really different. Anna is a part that needs to be white. Joe is a part that needs to be black. There are some parts that are flexible, and there are some that are not. It's as painfully simple as that.

If you don't understand that, then there's very little hope for you, because that's pretty much the deal. Like I said, if it was an all-black production of The Sound of Music, then to hell with it. Cast all the black people you want! It's a black production! If it's a regular production, then Maria IS white. It's so simple!

Geez. This needs to be locked or something.

[ActingDude17]

[what_the_heck013]

Okay, whatever. One day when I am a famous stage director on Broadway (if it still exists one day) I will cast whatever race in whichever role I please. You can just not come see my shows.
Half-price tickets for everyone else! YAY!

[Disney-Bway27]

Sigh.

Thank you, ActingDude. :]

[ActingDude17]

[Disney-Bway27]

Well, thank you Keaton. :]

[ActingDude17]

[GungaDin]

[quote="what_the_heck013"]Okay, whatever. One day when I am a famous stage director on Broadway (if it still exists one day) I will cast whatever race in whichever role I please. You can just not come see my shows.
![/quote]

Actually you CAN'T. Some of the licensing houses have final casting approval. Dream on.

[ActingDude17]

[GungaDin]

[quote="ActingDude17"][quote="GungaDin"]Some of the licensing houses have final casting approval. Dream on.[/quote]

'tis true. MTI won't let you cast any race as Benny other than an African-American. If you do otherwise you're violating your contract.

Some licensing companies get angry when you disrespect the writer or composer's original vision. After all, theatre is an art form. That'd be like walking up to the Mona Lisa and splashing grape juice on it.[/quote]

/\ /\ That's why they're there: to protect the original intents and visions of the authors/composers against so-called 'liberated' parites like 'what_the_heck013' who think they have free, unfettered rein to do whatever it is they want with somebody else's material.

[Disney-Bway27]

[LookBehindTheFacade]

Race isn't a major theme in SOM, so I don't think it should matter what race Maria is. True, it is based on a true story, but so many things have been changed.

And people keep saying they would be disappointed if they paid a lot of money to see the production, but in this case it sounds like community theatre. I'm sure the tickets didn't cost THAT much.

[GungaDin]

[quote="LookBehindTheFacade"]Race isn't a major theme in SOM, so I don't think it should matter what race Maria is. True, it is based on a true story, but so many things have been changed.

And people keep saying they would be disappointed if they paid a lot of money to see the production, but in this case it sounds like community theatre. I'm sure the tickets didn't cost THAT much.[/quote]

That's beside the point. You people don't get it, do you? When you put on a show with a record, you enter into a rental contract whereby for putting on the show, you are leased the script and the score and rights for a certain # of performances -- whether amateur or professional. There are terms in those contract that require you to, for the most part, respect the wishes and intents of the licensing organization WHO represent the estate of the original creators.

But with established shows like SOM, etc., you're supposed to know what you are renting. Whether 10% or 90% of is altered is beside the point. Plays and musicals are considered "intellectual property" and is protected by both local and international law.

I doubt very much the R&H Organization (which also represents all the Irving Berlin musicals) will let you make casting like that. Once they hear of it, they may suspend the license. And they have gotten 'cease and desist' orders from the courts to halt radically errant shows.

As for the price of tickets, that is determined by whether you are using some equity talent or not, AND well, you also get what you pay for. You buy a cheap cell phone, you get junk.

Why is it so hard to understand that there are certain rules one has to play by when you are performing somebody else's established material? If you want unlimited license to stage however you want a show, then write your own material -- and you can do whatever you want with it -- cast a thousand smelly goats, no one would care.

[Pannic]

Are there such rules for casting 'The Sound of Music?' Will the contract be revoked if a black Maria is cast?

[Disney-Bway27]

I don't think something as extreme as that would happen, but it definitely wouldn't be the best casting choice on the director's part.