Archive for Musicals.Net Musicals.Net |
| Salome |
"And Someday Jesse Helms will Die!"and folks that day is today!the former senator and lifelong bigot has died. Helms infamously oppossed blacks right to vote and called AIDS god's punishment to gays. my thead title comes from a classic forbidden broadway song. |
||||||||||
| Brock07 |
Huzzah! Huzzah! | ||||||||||
| jcstar |
Yey!! Let us all jump for joy!
Andy. |
||||||||||
| actor |
The world is better off without him. | ||||||||||
| The Pirate King |
Jesus Christ, what is wrong with you people?
While I disagreed with most of his political views, I hope his family and friends are well on this occasion. |
||||||||||
| Salome |
He wast he most despicable man in America. worse than Bush,Cheney,Coulter or Rove.
would you mourn Hitler,Mussolini,Bin Laden,Peron or Milosovec? |
||||||||||
| The Pirate King |
You're hopeless. |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
Jesse Helms retired from the Senate in 2003, so his recent death changes nothing, so there is nothing to celebrate.
And it is the Left that despised him. |
||||||||||
| Trevor reincarnate |
I don't care who he was. So... I guess that's a slap in the face enough to him. | ||||||||||
| Salome |
this is who he was..and yes not knowing him is a good slap in the face...
http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/04/bigot-racist-homophobe/ |
||||||||||
| The Pirate King |
I really doubt if he would be offended knowing that some teenage liberal theatre kid in California doesn't "care who he was". Even on that count, don't you think that we should care who such people are? |
||||||||||
| Salome |
are you saying you are a no good conservative? its that it pirate king? are you a Helms lover? | ||||||||||
| The Pirate King |
I'm a Democrat. I voted all Democrat in this primary season, and will vote for Obama (MY senator) for president. Why do you have to jump to such conclusions?
Did I time-travel back into the Red Scare without knowing it? |
||||||||||
| PappyCat |
I agree with The Pirate King. To celebrate someone's death, regardless of whether you oppose their political views (which I do) is terrible. | ||||||||||
| Salome |
So you are saying people didnt celebrate Hitler's death?? or Saddam's? or Juan Peron's? Its not like Helm's was merely of a different politacl party like McCain or Dole are..He was a detrimental thorn in the side of progress. do you know how many people died of AIDS because he said "no" in congress? or how many black people suffered because he blocked a bill from becoming a law???? he was a despicable person. his death doesnt change that fact.
what ? because helms is dead we must honor him? what is this be kind to bigots week??? |
||||||||||
| The Pirate King |
Helms was a senator. One man of 100 who, even altogether, can hardly achieve the atrocities that Hitler and Saddam did.
Helms may have stagnated some progress in Congress, but he had no part in genocide. People really need to stop comparing others to Hitler. That got old fifty years ago. |
||||||||||
| actor |
He was ********** disgusting! It's people like him that are destroying society! |
||||||||||
| Trevor reincarnate |
who said i'm liberal? |
||||||||||
| Dax |
It seems ironic that he passed away on Independence Day. Almost poetic.
Say what you want, but he was one of the few politicians that did not let political correctness obscure what he thought. At least we knew where he stood. Unlike many today where it's a guessing game on what a politician says and what he/she will do. This is the best thing that can be said for the man. Unfortunately an honest s.o.b. is still a s.o.b. (Re: "Tramp the Dirt Down" by Elvis Costello) But comparing him to Hitler is absurd  (and a fallacy), and shows little undertanding of Hitler. He is most similar to Coulter than any.
|
||||||||||
| mastachen |
Did you have any idea who he was before this thread was posted? I mean, cuz I don't pay any attention to politicians across the pond and it seems really doubtful that you'd have heard of this guy. |
||||||||||
| actor |
Yes I did. I pay attention to both British politics and American politics. I actually prefer American politics as British politics can be quite boring. |
||||||||||
| mastachen |
Oh.
Ok. |
||||||||||
| Trevor reincarnate |
Haha, Actor... That's funny. I think almost exactly opposite. I don't know much about British politics, but I think what I have seen is more entertaining than American politics!
But again... I'm no expert. |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
I really don't delight in anyone's death no matter how despicable. Remove them from power yes but I don't take any particular joy in death. I'd rather they live to repent their past. Helms lived a long life (86) so if he died with no regrets, he got the last laugh, whereas, Hitler and Saddam got the comeuppance.. |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
Now that is an interesting statement worthy of debate. Are he and his ilk "destroying society"? I see him more as trying to hold on to the status quo perhaps. I'm not convinced that with Helms out of the way society will be further "on the mend". With on going changes in the world I see both good and bad. I agree with Dax that at least we knew where he stood. What drives me nuts is all this political correctness where you have to state things as the policy desires to be, upsetting no one, rather than the way things really are. |
||||||||||
| jcstar |
I just realized that Salome didn't name any Canadian politicians in one of her posts. Then again, Trudeau's death was celebrated... by some.
The Hitler comparison doesn't bother me. If we don't learn from history, we're bound to repeat it. Andy. |
||||||||||
| Joshua |
It has nothing to do with bringing up a past issue, it has to do with the off-kilter comparison! No matter how repulsive you think he is, Helms did not kill millions of Jews... |
||||||||||
| le_moofin |
Or millions of any other minority or cultural group, for that matter. I understand being happy for his death if you were reeeeeally against the guy, but comparing him to the instigator and leader of mass genocide is a bit ridiculous. |
||||||||||
| actor |
The way things really are? You think all of the things he said are the way things really are? We should be relieved whenever someone who spreads homophobia and racism leaves this world. |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
I was speaking more about political correctness in general. But Helms spoke his mind so we knew where he stood. I'm more for debate, rebuttal, and marginalizing rather than wishing death. Helms was already out of the way so celebrating his death sounds a bit sick. Individuals who do should not have such a high minded view of themselves and should question their own character. |
||||||||||
| actor |
I am not celebrating his death nor did I ever wish him dead but I am relieved that he is no longer able to spread anymore of his ***********. | ||||||||||
| mastachen |
And where exactly did he spread his ******* to?
Did he make America more homophobic? Did he make America more racist? He was against integration, but did it end up happening anyways? He tried to block funding for AIDS research. Did he succeed? No. He was against affirmative action. Well, so was the Supreme Court. He blocked democratic policies from being passed during the Clinton and Carter administrations. Well so did the rest of Congress. He was just one man who spoke his mind, but didn't really have the power to affect anything, because usually, it was 99 against 1 in the Senate. He pissed off both Democrats and Republicans. He didn't spread his shit anywhere. His only legacy is that people will remember him as an outspoken bigot and a douchebag that didn't really do jackshit. That's all. |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
Ok, so you find relief in his death. I still think that's not right. He was already marginalized. |
||||||||||
| actor |
erm ... the citizens of America. He may not have had a huge affect on America but he still wanted to impose his dispicable views upon it and some people who are not really into politics and haven't formed an opinion on these matters yet may have listened to him. That's why we don't need people like that on this Earth. It's people like him that are encouraging young people to be homophobic and racist. He may not have suceeded in making America homophobic and racist but he obviously did nothing to stop it which is what we need if we want America to be free and accepting in the future. |
||||||||||
| mastachen |
Are you saying that people who don't have an opinion on homophobia or racism would've listened to him? Is that seriously what you're saying because that just sounds pretty laughable. And I'm a citizen of America; a minority also, and I've never been affected by any of his shit. And he's not encouraging young people to be racist or homophobic. People are a product of their upbringing, not what some random obscure senator tells you to believe in. |
||||||||||
| actor |
Yes. People in high school or younger who aren't into politics and haven't formed an opinion on these matters hear a guy saying all this stuff is going to affect them slightly. |
||||||||||
| mastachen |
People in high school who aren't into politics = no opinion on racism or homophobia? That's crap too.
Everybody has an opinion on racism and homophobia because that is part of their school curriculum. The racist schools will teach how the democrats forced black people into their schools and the normal schools will teach about the wonders of integration and praise Eisenhower and Kennedy for their pioneering work on that front. It's something that everyone has to deal with, not like regular politics like gun-control or abortion or immigration, where it's probably not an immediate issue for a lot of people. |
||||||||||
| actor |
Did I ************* say that all high school people who aren't into politics don't have an opinion on it?! I was giving an example of a group of people who MAY be influenced by Helms' opinions! People who aren't that interested in it, which tends to be people in high school and younger. |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
Well, we believe in freedom of speech...even if you don't like what is said. We're funny like that.
Young people listen more to their peers. |
||||||||||
| mastachen |
(to actor)
And I'm telling you, maybe I wasn't clear before, that I think you are completely wrong because not being interested in politics isn't the same as not having an opinion on racism or homophobia. People are exposed to racism at a very early age. You're not gonna find many elementary school kids going home and discussing with their parents about how to solve the illegal immigration issue or whether the economic profits of drilling oil in the US is worth the destruction of wildlife. Racism, on the other hand, will come up quick and early, and thus everyone will already have an innate opinion on it. My whole point of starting this debate with you is that you seemed to be worked up over a guy who dones't live in your country who really had no influence over anyone or anybody in my country, but yet you keep talking about how influential this person is and how people will be affected by him like he was the supreme chancellor of the galaxy. I strongly disagreed with that. Way to lose your temper. |
||||||||||
| Mistress |
Hey I liked Trudeau...he did more stuff when he was in power they most of our other leaders...you might not have liked his polotics, but you gotta admit he at leats did something...not to mention his work saw minister in the 60's, when he worked against the anti-gay laws and stuff...anyway I sorta agree with what soem are saying here...you may not habve liked the guy, but that doesn't mean you have to jump for joy when he dies...and in that case you aren't a racist bigot for not doing so...I'm sorry for Salome's crazy antics...your VERY leftist, aren't you, Salome? |
||||||||||
| actor |
Did you not read my last post? I never said that.
Most people who are racist are racist because they were brought up to be by their parents. How did their parents become racist? Probably by their parents or someone like Jesse Helms.
So what if he doesn't live in my country? I already told you that I am interested in American politics, and I'm planning on moving to America in a few years anyway so this stuff does affect me. I never said he was really influential, if you look back I said "He may not have had a huge affect on America but he still wanted to impose his dispicable views upon it". |
||||||||||
| mastachen |
Now it just seems like you're going back on all your previous posts. Just because you never flat out said something doesn't mean that I couldn't have inferred your meaning.
I agree with the first part but that is exactly where we disagree. My point of contention is that there's not going to be a young'un listening to a Jesse Helms's speech on his radio and say, "wow, he's right! I think I'm going to look at black and gay people differently now."
I did see that. I ignored it because I thought it contradicted your opinions earlier in the thread... |
||||||||||
| Brock07 |
Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
|
||||||||||
| jcstar |
That line from Weird A's "Jerry Springer comes to mind, here. The one about that "gay Jewish black dude."
Andy. |
||||||||||
| Mungojerrie_rt |
So, if someone doesn't agree with your view of what is right and wrong, they should die. And you are any better than them how? | ||||||||||
| Trevor reincarnate |
NOW you get the point! |
||||||||||
| jcstar |
Just tell me when and I throw a chair at somebody!
Andy. |
||||||||||
| actor |
What's with all the editing? Didn't we agree awhile ago that swearing on the boards is okay as long as it's not directed at another member? | ||||||||||
| Salome |
how quickly they forget. | ||||||||||
| SomeoneLikeYou |
I pretty much despise all politicians at this point. They are so corrupt and don't know how to run this country properly. I'm going to have to make like Collins from RENT and become an anarchist. lol | ||||||||||
| Salome |
no you don't anarchists are just people who are too lazy to make change.
besides there are some great politicians out there who want tihngs to change such as John Edwards,John Kerry,Al Franken,Barbara Boxer. |
||||||||||
| Set_Buildin_Dad |
No, we did not. Swearing is not allowed and will be edited by a moderator if seen. To quote from the rules you agreed to when you joined:
|
||||||||||
| SomeoneLikeYou |
Really? I'm definitely not like that. I'll scratch that idea! Seriously though, I wish that the few good politicians left could have more power...then perhaps we could actually get some important things done. |
||||||||||
| le_moofin |
Yeah... until their increase in power causes them to become powerhungry and corrupt, just like all of the other politicians who had a taste of too much power. No, I think humans (especially politicians) don't handle power very well. |
||||||||||
| Mungojerrie_rt |
All power corrupts. Which is why rebellions never work. The 'good guys' will be the bad guys later to a new group of rebels. | ||||||||||
| Robinflamingo |
No man is an island
No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as any manner of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind. And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. John Donne |
||||||||||
| nabla |
Agggh! It's like the time I had to study Animal Farm all over again, ahem "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
I don't go along with the idea of change for change's sake.
Egad, I must have wandered into an alternate universe where everything is reversed!  The federal government is already intrusive enough. Seeing the drab dingy facilities and poor rude service for renewing my driver's license and replacing my Social Security card were enough to convince me that we need less government in our lives. And there are even some on the Left that want to nationalize the oil companies.
|
||||||||||
| Baker |
Some of you amaze me. |
||||||||||
| Dax |
Less government? You mean like prior the Bush years?
Why should this be a surprise? However: (this pain in the arse link...) http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/gas-could-fall-2-if/story.aspx?guid={2673C102-68E0-41D9-9C9A-10EE2E723948}&dist=msr_13 Gas could fall to $2 if Congress acts, analysts say The price of retail gasoline could fall by half, to around $2 a gallon, within 30 days of passage of a law to limit speculation in energy-futures markets, four energy analysts told Congress on Monday. Testifying to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, Michael Masters of Masters Capital Management said that the price of oil would quickly drop closer to its marginal cost of around $65 to $75 a barrel, about half the current $135. Fadel Gheit of Oppenheimer & Co., Edward Krapels of Energy Security Analysis and Roger Diwan of PFC Energy Consultants agreed with Masters' assessment at a hearing on proposed legislation to limit speculation in futures markets. Krapels said that it wouldn't even take 30 days to drive prices lower, as fund managers quickly liquidated their positions in futures markets. "Record oil prices are inflated by speculation and not justified by market fundamentals," according to Gheit. "Based on supply and demand fundamentals, crude-oil prices should not be above $60 per barrel." Futures trading in London has not been a major factor in rising oil prices, testified Sir Bob Reid, chairman of the Chairman of London-based ICE Futures Europe. Rising prices are largely a function of fundamental supply and demand, not manipulation or speculation, he said. "Energy speculation has become a growth industry and it is time for the government to intervene," said Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., chairman of the full committee. "We need to consider a full range of options to counter this rapacious speculation." It was Dingell's strongest statement yet on the role of speculators. Dingell introduced a bill on June 11 that would ask the Energy Department to gather the facts on energy prices, including the role played by speculators. There are two kinds of speculators in the futures markets, Masters said. Traditional speculators are those who need to hedge because they actually take physical possession of the commodities. Index speculators, on the other hand, are merely allocating a portion of their portfolio to commodity futures. Index speculation damages price-discovery mechanisms provided by futures markets, Masters added The committee will likely consider legislation that would rein in index speculation by imposing higher-margin requirements; setting position limits for speculators; requiring more disclosure of positions; and preventing pension funds and investment banks from owning commodities. |
||||||||||
| Brock07 |
Wouldn't that be nice....... | ||||||||||
| Pounce |
In general, yes. The federal government continues to grow with the Bush administration and I'm sure with Obama it would be no different and probably more. And my driver's license is state issued so my comment suggests we need less state government as well.
It is no surprise. Government owned oil companies would become worse than the bane of American air travel...the TSA. Oil price rises are due to speculation but there are other factors such as the dropping US dollar and present and future demand by China and India. And apparently GM doesn't share the optimism of those that think $2 a gallon gas is only a congressional act away. GM is making a hard turn to more fuel-efficient cars. |
||||||||||
| Dax |
And I'm almost certain you believed the opposite with GWB when he was only a presidential nominee in 2000. |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
You'd be mostly wrong then. I wasn't fond of his dad either. Neither are true conservatives. And I only support McCain now as the lesser of two evils. With a name like Barack Obama, I thought he didn't have a chance but he might sweep into the White House in a manner similar to Jimmy Carter in 1976. The country feels a need for a change and Obama is saying the magic word. That desire for change may also be what sunk Hillary. |
||||||||||
| Salome |
Obama is a wonderful thinker. he may not have teh experience but he is a hell of alot better than bush's pet McCain.
Mccain would keep us in Iraq..he would fight the right to abortion he would fight gay marraige he would push corperate america overseas. we dont need another 19th century neanderthal. |
||||||||||
| Robinflamingo |
My biggest problem with ANY candidate that bases his/her entire campaign on the word "CHANGE" is that change is not always good. Change coupled with lack of experience might be akin to the guy who runs the merry go round saying "Hey! I think I'll run the roller coaster today! I need a CHANGE!"
Change doesn't necessarily equal a good thing. |
||||||||||
| Salome |
change can also mean an inexperienced guy like harry truman making good too. | ||||||||||
| Dax |
Oh? You mean you supported Al Gore back then? Really?
The change they are speaking of is the disaster we know as the Bush Administration. And I'd say that change is a good thing. |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
Hmmm...and how did you reach that conclusion? 
|
||||||||||
| le_moofin |
I don't think anyone here (at least, not publicly) will say that the Bush administration has everything right and that things should stay exactly the same. Yes, change can be good. But if people go about the wrong way to cause change or the changes they make don't actually improve the situation... then what good does change do? I think Obama shows promise, but I really do wish he wasn't the presidential candidate at this time because I think he needs more experience as a legislator/senator. And I forget who said it (perhaps Pounce?) but I am in full agreement with less government involvement. Especially on the federal level. Then again, while I'm not paranoid of politicians and government, I certainly don't believe that they have my very best interests at heart... it's all about what society wants. And frankly, I don't always agree with society. That's my humble $.02. |
||||||||||
| Dax |
There were only two serious candidates after Clinton; Bush and Gore. Anyone else was a sad joke. |
||||||||||
| jcstar |
And then both Clinton and Gore became jokes.
Andy. |
||||||||||
| le_moofin |
As well as Bush. I s'pose you could thrown in John Kerry (although Salome will probably violently disagree) since his flaky stance on various issues hardly testified to his ability to lead (rather than follow) society/the nation. |
||||||||||
| Salome |
Moofin, I dismissed anything you had to say about politics a long time ago.
|
||||||||||
| Pounce |
And there is another choice "none of the above". I'm not obligated to support anyone. I wasn't happy with any of the choices then just as I am not happy with the choices now. My support of McCain is very weak so don't take my support of him as enthusiastically embracing his agenda. It's more fear of one rather than support of the other. |
||||||||||
| Dax |
I think it would be fair to say that he did whatever he could and said whatever to try to get elected. McCain is in the same boat. (not "swift.") Except he is on the "right" side of it. A pity too. Get on the damn elevator! Fly on the damn plane! Calculate the odds of being harmed by a terrorist! It's still about as likely as being swept out to sea by a tidal wave. Suck it up, for crying out loud. You're almost certainly going to be okay. And in the unlikely event you're not, do you really want to spend your last days cowering behind plastic sheets and duct tape? That's not a life worth living, is it? ---John McCain, from his book "Why Courage Matters" printed several years ago He's changed however from being the "maverick.
Sorry "none of the above" isn't really an option that helps any. It's like having a written test in school and instead of writing an answer to a problem, you instead leave it blank. By writing something, anything, down, you have a chance at being correct. Leaving it blank will always be wrong. Vote for the person you like. Vote against the person you dislike. At least you will have made a choice... 
|
||||||||||
| Mungojerrie_rt |
Doesn't the US have more than two parties? Vote for a minor one. They often end up with more power through having the balance of power. | ||||||||||
| Dax |
A couple here and there that are "Independent" but nothing significant in congress. And in a presidential election, voting for either the Green Party or Libertarian Party ends up with the more opposing party acquiring more votes. (i.e. usually voting for the Libertarian Pary takes votes away from the Republican Party with the net effect of the Democratic Party getting more votes, assuming no one votes for the Green party) |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
Wow, what sage advice! And I'm not a big fan of analogies. Voting is not the same as taking a test.
|
||||||||||
| Dax |
I assumed you weren't stupid but merely ignorant. After all, not voting lumps you in with whom the majority voted for. |
||||||||||
| le_moofin |
That's good, because I'd rather not have a pissy Salome wrecking havoc on the boards because of something political I said. At least we can agree on the greatness of Rex Harrison =3 |
||||||||||
| Pounce |
Ignorant of what? I already stated that I didn't like either candidate. People have been voting for (because they like a candidate) or against (not favoring either but disliking one of them more) candidates for as long as there have been elections. The latter should not be a viewed as an endorsement of the policies of the voted for candidate but rather a repudation of the other. |
||||||||||
| jcstar |
I really don't like politics. That's why I have never voted in an election.
Andy. |
||||||||||
| Pannic |
Glad I'm not old enough to vote. I can't really think of any candidates in this race that I trust to run the country. Part of the reason I'm into anarchy. | ||||||||||
| Dax |
I'm uncertain which is more contemptible. A person who preaches hatred of either party and can't see her/his own hypocrisy, or a person that allows him/herself to believe that ignorance or apathy is an option.
Old enough to remember this used to mean something. What if you don't vote? Millions of foreigners would gladly take any nonvoting American's place at the polls. A mere 2% of the world's population is about to elect a President whose every move can deeply affect the other 98%. If that fact imposes no moral duty on Americans to vote, and vote wisely, what does? |
||||||||||
| jcstar |
I haven't voted because I believe in promises being kept. See my post about the Waltz of Eva and Che.
Politicians are put in a position of power and have control over the citizens of the country. If they have that kind of power, why are we still not trusting them? They have the power to make a world a better place (ie. end poverty, stop war), so why don't they bloody well just do it? What is so hard about that? Use the power that the people give you! Andy. |
||||||||||
| Pannic |
I'm old enough to recognize a blatantly transparent ad hominem attack, and I'm also old enough to recognize soapbox comments that are filled with nothing but rhetoric and holier-than-thou sermonizing. | ||||||||||
| jcstar |
So, why bother electing people?
Andy. |
||||||||||
| Dax |
Calling it for what it is; ignorance. Or do you honestly believe that know anything about anarchy? As for the supposed "attack..." You haven't posted here long enough to know just how aggressive I can be.. But maybe I'm wrong. Show me what you know about this "anarchy" you claim to be into. 
|